Tiny Core Linux
Tiny Core Base => TCB Talk => Topic started by: JoXo009 on November 18, 2009, 08:47:55 AM
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Until now TC seems to be targeted mainly to the Linux coder who feels happy to create his own individual system.
On the other hand TC has got great advantages which could be made available for unexperienced users too.
It's not so difficult to create a ready made packet working out of the box serving the needs of such users.
But in this case boot messages aren't the appropriate way of starting.
Unexperienced users shouldn't be confronted with messages they don't understand.
On the contrary they should be shown a nice picture with progress display creating the feeling: 'I'm on the right way to that great new TC software.'
Acutally there are some 'splash' efforts already. TC itself has a picture included which sometimes shows up. Maybe the grub bootloader can be combined with some image too. A remaster with splashy (http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=splashy) can catch part of the boot sequence, you can create a partially black screen by suppressing messages and so on.
But alle these efforts are patchwork only. Solving one part, unwanted messages will still show up at some other part, because it's done by building on top of TC.
So I would like to suggest thinking about full splash screen as basic TC feature in a way that changing to full splash screen in future will be as simple as installing an extension.
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But in this case boot messages aren't the appropriate way of starting.
Unexperienced users shouldn't be confronted with messages they don't understand.
No.
My opinion is only that, but I think a splash screen as a vanity feature for those who want to personalize their boot up is a great idea while hiding boot messages from the tender eyes of the inexperienced is a bad idea.
Let them see not just a bar indicating boot progress but also exactly what progress is taking place. For the (exceptionally) short time it takes TC to boot, those who feel the need to do so can look at something else while those who are curious can maybe take the first steps towrad learning how their system boots. The non-curious should be encouraged to join the ranks of the curious rather than having the details hidden away from them.
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The non-curious should be encouraged to join the ranks of the curious
Right.
But you are totally wrong in your conclusions.
Or do you really believe your grand ma would feel encouraged when beeing hit by mysterious expert sentences.
And that's what I'm talking about, usual people with a knowledge level like a grand ma. TC could open itself for such people, if TC wanted to offer a working splash screen for example.
Or you may decide to stay Linux King XVI, imposing painful experience on your visitors because you believe it's for their best.
Fortunately people are free nowadays and they did their decision already. There are minimal 10,000,000 mio people which could use a ready made version of TC for their advantage and probably about 1,000,000 of them know of TC existence. But only about 10,000 use TC.
So between 90% and 99% decided against TC and they are right as long as TC behaves as King enforcing people who dont know what's a process, to read all these process messages, so terrifying for them.
Stop thinking for other people, let them decide themself
- create a splash screen with a nice button 'more information' for example.
Then TC will win people instead of putting them off.
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This is the same tired old freaking argument that's ultimately all about winning beauty contests and has nothing whatsoever to do with performance -- quite the opposite, it's about trying to attract with veneers (rather than substance) the most easily intimidated users to something that's probably not suitable for them. "The desktop's not pretty enough!" "Users don't wanna see their hardware detected!" "We need more artwork to keep up with the big distros!"
Blah! This isn't a d*ck-measuring contest about market share or putting off potential end users because it's not pretty enough. It's a niche distro, not for everyone. If you want to hide your boot process and/or gobs of RAM-clogging eye candy, there are plenty distros that cater to you.
Anything that hides hardware detection is of no use to me. I resent the fact that in my most recent installations of certain other distros (including flashy ones you think TinyCore should compete against by playing by *their* crappy rules) I had to disable default bootsplash so I could see what was causing repeated problems during boot. Your granny may not wanna see which NIC or wireless card is detected at boot, but some of us do -- it's not helpful to see a progress bar or bouncing balls or such shite if something is hanging, isn't even being detected, or is being assigned an improper driver.
The "Core" philosophy is antithetical to such notions dealing with aesthetics. Want more eye candy and less "geek" stuff at boot? Roll your own! Like the hokey pokey, that's what it's all about.
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Actually, the kernel boot messages are already hidden from the user with the "quiet" boot option. The messages you see are written for TC to let the user know in a basic way what is going on, and there is eye candy - a rotating dash. And it's in color, too.
Seriously, I consider the TC boot to be pretty aesthetically pleasing.
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@lucky - You know, I didn'd suggest anything what would mean a change for you?
You know, it's meant as additional possibility for unskilled newcomers?
.... is of no use to me
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beauty contests
Sorry, thats absurdity.
Splash screen isn't needed for beauty reasons but to prevent the misunderstandings boot messages inevitably create for unexperienced users.
Imagine first time landing on moon and being presented the plate 'No moon in directory'.
Would you feel confident or would you fear, 'Oh, I must have done a lethal error - my system is blown up.'
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That's what a splash screen is needed for. Prevent that feeling of being lost, prevent 95% people running away before they could see the advantages of TC. And afterwards they should have the possibility to switch on messages if they want to, just by hitting a button.
But in contrast to you, I think TC shouldn't force people to use certain features, but offer what's asked for and leave the decision to the user.
It's a niche distro.
True - but the question is, shall TC stay to be a niche product.
Shall TC welcome 95% of new visitors by informing them: 'Go away, TC is not made for you!'
If there is the possibility to serve the needs of 10 x more people, just by offering some additional features - (you wouldn't loose anything) - why not offer these features?
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kudo's to rotating colored dash.
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Ubuntu
It does everything you want.
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Ubuntu
It does everything you want.
That's the
'Go away, TC is not for you'
message, mentioned above.
This message is impolite and wrong too. Ubuntu doesn't do everything at all.
Ubuntu is by far not at as small as needed for some important applications.
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I think, there is no need to wander from the subject,
my suggestion concerns just a simple splash screen as optional feature,
something a lot of people are asking for.
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JoXo009, you clearly have a point there. One question however: does the splash screen really need to be graphical as in "uses VGA or VESA, and therefore needs additional programs and libraries worth 1-3 megabytes?"
The background is: I justed booted TC 2.6 RC 2 in an emulator (this as a warning; perhaps things look differently on a real machine). As far as I see, all on-screen text during boot-up is tightly controlled by the tc-config script; the startup messages are few; the rotating dash already implements basic animation.
I could imagine that a gifted ASCII / ANSI artist can produce a stylish splash screen with the same (purely text-based) means that are currently used to show the colored text and the rotating dash. That splash screen would not need 1-3 megabytes, but only, say, 1-3 kilobytes. Add in a new boot parameter that tells the tc-config script to either show messages like "Setting Timezone to" or advance a progress bar, and you're done.
Would that meet your suggestion?
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No, my point is that Ubunto already did all the work to make it easy for your grandmother.
I don't want to see this turn into another Ubuntu.
The TC developers have a vision.
You seem to have a different vision.
That does not mean your vision is wrong.
Go ahead and add all the features you covet.
Add the wiki pages you feel are needed.
There is plenty of room for extensions here if you want to write them.
As for me, I want it to do what pleases me, not your grandmother.
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i see an ascii cow running away from the rotating dash... sorry, can't turn the kid in me off
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Hi Frank,
your idea is an interessant solution for some cases*.
But there are other cases where it doesn't meet user needs. There is for example a university install with about 500 working places whose admin decided that boot messages aren't appropriate as he needs some general informing splash.
All these solutions exist already, the problem is only that TC isn't really prepared for.
Using splashy is possible but quite difficult as it needs a remaster, see Wiki splashy article (http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=splashy) of gutmensch and jls_legalize.
And even if successfull with splashy there still remain the grub messages. There are a lot of options to make grub more silent, but to my knowledge no combination makes the current grub version disappearing totally from boot screen.
So my suggestion to offer an easy splash option technically means probably to prepare TC at an early level for that option, for example to think about a possibility to
A) offer splashy as kind of extension without the need of remastering
B) using a bootloader or a grub version, which is able to hide totally
or similar solutions.
I would be very intererested to hear more about such technical possibilites.
_____________
*partially at least cause there is not only tc-config producing messages, grub is doing it too.
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I tried the syslinux background picture, but it clears immediately after selecting a kernel,
so that does not help with your problem.
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but it clears immediately after selecting a kernel,
To my knowledge gutmensch got the splashy solution running by waiting to a relative late state of (sorry if I don't use the correct term) framebuffer.
And the grub problem didn't occur in his case cause he uses another kind of booting.
This information made me think, maybe with one or two adaptations TC could make it a lot easier to offer a splash screen when needed.
And that's what I suggested, thinking about that possibility of improvement.
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Splash screen isn't needed for beauty reasons but to prevent the misunderstandings boot messages inevitably create for unexperienced users.
Cut the hyperbole. I don't think it's "inevitable" that boot messages create misunderstandings for anyone. Certain users may be uncomfortable with them. That's their problem, not TinyCore's.
Shall TC welcome 95% of new visitors by informing them: 'Go away, TC is not made for you!'
Sure. And if TC won't do it, I will in simple terms: "You can't please everyone. Have a nice day and try something pre-configured, dumbed down, and that you can't control on your own because its developers have taken all such liberties for you."
One size does *not* fit all. Let's keep TinyCore tiny and leave it to developers who want to base their "we won't scare you with the details" distros on TinyCore to dress it all up as they see fit.
If there is the possibility to serve the needs of 10 x more people, just by offering some additional features - (you wouldn't loose anything) - why not offer these features?
First, don't tell me "bootsplash" is a feature because it serves no function and possesses no utility -- it only masks the boot process, which I think makes this an *anti*-feature.
Second, I don't think projects need to appeal to a wider user base to be "successful." Users who want such a system as TinyCore will be attracted to it regardless of whether they see how their hardware is detected and configured.
Third, I'm not opposed to making things easier for end users but I do think suggestions like yours really confuse "ease" for "aesthetic." Boot processes aren't scary, and the kind of user put off by seeing text scroll up are the same kind whose incessantly repetitive questions end up flooding forums and IRC and wherever they go instead of using Google to answer rudimentary questions. TinyCore has come a long way in the past year but it's probably still not the best starting point on a Linux learning curve for many users, particularly for inexperienced users who are so easily scared off. That's not snobbery, that's reality. And it's not with an intention to run people off but realization that some things aren't good for everyone no matter how you try to do them. Let the more fragile user spend time with something that doesn't require any hands-on configuration, let the strong use TinyCore.
Frankly, I don't see how enabling a bootsplash option will benefit sizable groups of users who'd be scared off without it. It seems this would only be of use to someone looking for an easy way out of remastering. I really don't think development should be focused on such trivialities as a splash option or anything else which is, at its heart, more about aesthetics than function -- style over substance.
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Frankly, I don't see
Dear lucky,
obviously you don't see anything, are probably up on the wrong side.
Filtering out any unnecessary information is the only way to handle knowledge in an age counting information by gigabytes.
Not only filtering out but also delivering just in time, only then when that piece of information is needed, that’s the future.
Delivering nothing if not needed, that’s the state of the art. Even you will have to learn these facts.
I would like to see boot messages in case there is a serious error.
In all the 99.9% other cases I want an image telling me that everything is all right.
Would be great if TC could offer such feature.
Kevin
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Let's first off recognise that a splash image during bootup means:
* Extra RAM used to display an image at such a low level of start up
* More disk room to store that boot image (Sure, it may be almost negligable, but that is beside the point - Every release aims to get smaller, not larger)
And don't forget that it is a "Feature" which does not add any Functionality. Even if we DID agree that making the boot look friendlier is a "function", we must recognise that it is not a core function in getting a desktop loaded.
With this in mind, go read the core concepts of tiny core.
The way I see it, TC's job is not to pander to the whims of people who want things easy, pretty, or simple. TC's jobs is to pander to the esoteric whims of people who want something minimal, something they have complete control over. Changing that would mean changing TC's Core concepts, and I rather like the concepts TC is built around.
IMHO, TC is only going to appeal to people with at least a little bit of a hacker/DIY mentality. If your grandma or other non-technical relative happens to be using TC, then yourself or some other more technical relative has probably set it up - in which case you have access to all the tools to screw with the boot system all you like. ;)
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Let's first off recognise that a splash image during bootup means:
* Extra RAM used to display an image at such a low level of start up
* More disk room to store that boot image
Not at all. It's the option we are discussing on. The option means:
* Null Extra RAM
* Null storage room
TC wouldn't grow by a single byte when offering the option.
As with any other extension a grow would take place only after installing TC when using the option and downloading that extension.
And what TC's Core concept concerns I think Kevin is right. Being minimal as stipulated in these concept is the future and that means presenting information only if it's needed, presenting boot messages only if there are boot errors.
Taking core concepts seriously the option of switching off messages as long as there is no heavy error would be more than consequent to my opinion.
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Weren't some options discussed some time ago? There's already a fb boot image, too. Maybe try
vga=782 console=/dev/null... but this would suppress any passing errors as well. But depending on the audience, that may not be an issue either (most likely boot would continue too).
Obviously, supporting something in the base require changes. This may mean added things and complexity in our boot system. However, I can't judge on this because I have never looked into the details of Splashy, etc.
Also, let's keep grandmothers out of this - "new users" etc. are fine.
i see an ascii cow running away from the rotating dash... sorry, can't turn the kid in me off
I like it ;)
EDIT: As I have reiterated on IRC, bootloaders are out of scope - they are invoked before TC does.
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Let's first off recognise that a splash image during bootup means:
* Extra RAM used to display an image at such a low level of start up
* More disk room to store that boot image
Not at all. It's the option we are discussing on. The option means:
* Null Extra RAM
* Null storage room
TC wouldn't grow by a single byte when offering the option.
As with any other extension a grow would take place only after installing TC when using the option and downloading that extension.
And what TC's Core concept concerns I think Kevin is right. Being minimal as stipulated in these concept is the future and that means presenting information only if it's needed, presenting boot messages only if there are boot errors.
Taking core concepts seriously the option of switching off messages as long as there is no heavy error would be more than consequent to my opinion.
Ah, I misunderstood. You want to make an extension that would hide boot messages? Hmm, I don't think that's feasible. By the time extensions are loaded, the boot process is already a fair way in.
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Frankly, I don't see how enabling a bootsplash option will benefit sizable groups of users who'd be scared off without it. It seems this would only be of use to someone looking for an easy way out of remastering. I really don't think development should be focused on such trivialities as a splash option or anything else which is, at its heart, more about aesthetics than function -- style over substance.
Dear lucky,
obviously
Kevin
Wanna play? Speaking of bad sides, welcome to mine. (expletives reserved due to TOS)
@althalus
Ah, I misunderstood. You want to make an extension that would hide boot messages?
Worse, a boot option to allow the use of such an extension -- which would require these fragile and skittish noobs to understand beforehand that they need to use a cheatcode AND to have first downloaded the splash extension or else they'll be scared off from the boot messages. And we already know how everyone bothers to RTFM. So this is one more hurdle for them to consider if they even figure out such an option/extension/whatever is avaiable.
On a scale of 1-10 for attracting new users, this is a zero. The thing that hampers TinyCore from global domination isn't "more boot messages than ubuntu."
On a scale of 1-10 of utility/feature, this is a zero. As I noted before, it does nothing except mask a normal process. While some users may be intimidated by such things, it's not a barrier to use or adoption.
@hats
Also, let's keep grandmothers out of this...
Agreed even though our LUG meetings are dominated by the geriatric set.