Tiny Core Linux
Tiny Core Base => TCB Q&A Forum => Topic started by: todistue01 on August 27, 2009, 10:35:04 PM
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Preface:
One of the main reasons that small Linux distros will never enjoy the popularity of Macintosh, Ubuntu & Suse is the lack of organized quality documentation. One has only to look at “Puppy Linux,” “DSL” and now, tinycore Linux.
The tinycore install documentation: ( http://www.tinycorelinux.com/install.html) scored a 94 of 100 point possible on my scale.
My problem:
The following link is a nice decription of options: http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html However, since it fails to tell one how to effect the setups that it describes, it is worthless. Could someone please tell me how to make my hard-disk install of Tinycore persistent? Note: I installed tinycore on /dev/hda1 (mkfs.ext3) following this link () with the exception that I created a swap partion on /dev/hda2/.
Please help (especially users of windows, Ububtu, and Suse). I single out these users due to their excellent writing & understanding of those who Linux & windows.
I would greatly appreciate help.
the difference between me and many who post is this: I never post helpful information unless I've personally performed all the steps that I've posted.
thank you or
Vă mulţumesc anticipat
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Keep in mind, Tiny Core is in the relatively early stages of development, and the people involved are volunteers. A lot of time and effort is being put into developing a good operating system. They can't do everything at once.
Here are some links which may be helpful.
Install Tiny Core while connected to the internet: /net-install.html][removed due to policy violation]/net-install.html (http://[removed due to policy violation)
Install Programs: /install-programs.html][removed due to policy violation]/install-programs.html (http://[removed due to policy violation)
Backup: /backup.html][removed due to policy violation]/backup.html (http://[removed due to policy violation)
You may also refer to other subjects.
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I had to create a new account (todaistue01 is now todaistue02) as I forgot the password to the original, and I mistyped my registration email.
>
a more mellow me. ;)
First, I'd like to say thanks to Guy for responding.
Second, for the record, I do respect Linux and I respect volunteers. However, as I stated in my original post, the Linux community does a wonderful job of shooting itself in the foot.
Still Lost
I went through each of your links to no avail.
There is missing information. If I knew how to solve this problem, I would really like to re-write the pertinent steps.
Problems & Questions:
On exit, (shutdown) the program prompts for a backup location to be entered manually. What is this location? Do I need to use the "mkdir" command to create it? If so, can I expect chown, chmod chgrp problems? If the location exist, how can I see it as there is no file manager such as nautilus or dolphin to be found? All I know is that when I restart, all extensions are gone. Other than this problem, It would seem that I've (FINALLY) found my needed small distro.
Any help would be appreciated,
thanks in advance
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Re-posting from Core Concepts...
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html
Backup/Restore and Other Persistency Options:
Backup/Restore
After setting up your new system, you will want to save your settings. There is a file called /opt/.filetool.lst. It is a simple text file of files and directories listed one per line using a full path that the user wants to save/restore. Use any of the GUI tools provided on the Tools menu or any editors available via extensions or vi to change/update (e.g., select Beaver, then open /opt/.filetool.lst).
The default is to backup the entire home/tc directory. However, one can choose to selectively backup only certain files. However it is important to note that the entry /opt/.filetool.lst must NOT be removed from the .filetool.lst as this provides for persistence for the .filetool.lst itself.
Also note that the capability exists to exclude files from the backup with the file /opt/.xfiletool.lst. Adding entries to this file will exclude them from the backup. Cache and other files are in the default /opt/.xfiletool.lst.
The backup will be written to a file called "mydata.tgz". You can initially select the storage device by using the boot option of: restore=hdXY or after boot, by selecting "Backup/Restore" from the "Panel". Your backup will be automatically searched for and restored during subsequent booting. Once a mydata.tgz has been successfully created, the boot option may be omitted. Autoscan once again is there to support "hands free" booting. And as before, always specifying the boot option speeds your boot time.
Additionally you may add a directory to the location of the backup, e.g., restore=hdXY/a_directory This will allow the backup file "mydata.tgz" to be placed in a directory. Using a directory also means that you must always specify it via its boot code. You can skip using your backup with the boot option of norestore.
These options together with a local .xsession provide the user with much more control of their preferred environment. For example, by editing the .xsession you can start up your favorite X-Windows programs. You can start non-Window programs by editing the .profile and then adding it to your /opt/.filetool.lst. You can even load additional modules and system-specific required files by editing the /opt/bootlocal.sh file and then adding it to your filetool.lst.
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Sir, I have to say thank you for replying. However, as indicated by your post’s title, all you did was copy & paste from tiny core concepts. I’ve already indicated that tinycore concepts, in it current incarnation, is worthless. Please allow me help you and many other prospective tinycore users.
Re-posting from Core Concepts...
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html
Backup/Restore and Other Persistency Options:
Backup/Restore
After setting up your new system, you will want to save your settings. There is a file called /opt/.filetool.lst. It is a simple text file of files and directories listed one per line using a full path that the user wants to save/restore. Use any of the GUI tools provided on the Tools menu or any editors available via extensions or vi to change/update (e.g., select Beaver, then open /opt/.filetool.lst).
Really?? Who cares? I cannot access opt/.filetool.lst as there is no file manager. Installing a file manager does not help. If one restarts after installing a file manager, then the file manager is deleted.
Re-posting from Core Concepts...
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html
Backup/Restore and Other Persistency Options:
Backup/Restore
. Use any of the GUI tools provided on the Tools menu or any editors available via extensions or vi to change/update (e.g., select Beaver, then open /opt/.filetool.lst).
What?? English please. Beaver does not work. How about some simple steps versus paragraphs that accomplish nothing. Which gui tool? How about steps to use it?
[/quote]
Re-posting from Core Concepts...
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html
Backup/Restore and Other Persistency Options:
Backup/Restore
The default is to backup the entire home/tc directory. However, one can choose to selectively backup only certain files. However it is important to note that the entry /opt/.filetool.lst must NOT be removed from the .filetool.lst as this provides for persistence for the .filetool.lst itself.
Additionally you may add a directory to the location of the backup, e.g., restore=hdXY/a_directory This
I presume that you are saying that extensions are downloaded into home and their setting are also in home. Had the documentation been written better, I’d have no need to ask.
Re-posting from Core Concepts...
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html
The backup will be written to a file called "mydata.tgz". You can initially select the storage device by using the boot option of: restore=hdXY or after boot, by selecting "Backup/Restore" from the "Panel". Your backup will be automatically searched for and restored during subsequent booting. Once a mydata.tgz has been successfully created, the boot option may be omitted. Autoscan once again is there to support "hands free" booting. And as before, always specifying the boot option speeds your boot time.
Really?????
Please point to the part of the documentation that tells one how to effect the following: “using the boot option of: restore=hdXY”
Re-posting from Core Concepts...
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html
…You can initially select the storage device by using the boot option of: restore=hdXY or after boot, by selecting "Backup/Restore" from the "Panel".[/b] Your backup will be automatically searched for and restored during subsequent booting. Once a mydata.tgz has been successfully created, the boot option may be omitted. Autoscan once again is there to support "hands free" booting. And as before, always specifying the boot option speeds your boot time.
The preceding is false. However, it may be true if one follows guidelines that are shamefully & flagrantly absent from http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html.
What is my bottom line?
Sir, I do not mean to affronting. However, truth is truth.
Your system is far different than the top eight distros at www.distrowatch.com. Your documentation is woefully lacking in some areas. This is why your documentation fails. Also as a small distro, there is very limited google help. Your documentation entitled at http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html does not contain step-by-step instructions. It alienates prospective “Tinycore” users; it alienates linux users who are competent enough to quadruple boot Linux & Vista; competent enough to use mkdir, competent enough to manual edit grub; competent enough to create grub rescue Cds & USB drives and last but not least competent enough to use dd & backup critical file to include the MBR, which is actually a collection of few files and programs. I am no Linux guru or windows IT, but I am competent. It is unfortunate that your documentation is my only obstacle
Teach me and I will gladly rewrite it.
Final bottom Line
The documentation found at: http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html is useless. The http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html is not step-by-step; It is conversational patter. It ruins what is otherwise a remarkably great small distro. For any one accustomed to the documentation associated with the larger vendors of windows software, Ubuntu, Suse Debian or PCLinux, be prepared for hampering disappointment.
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Really?? Who cares? I cannot access opt/.filetool.lst as there is no file manager. Installing a file manager does not help. If one restarts after installing a file manager, then the file manager is deleted.
Not if the emelfm, glib1 and gtk1 extensions are placed in a folder named /tce
What?? English please. Beaver does not work. How about some simple steps versus paragraphs that accomplish nothing. Which gui tool? How about steps to use it?
With the beaver, glib1 and gtk1 extensions placed in the /tce folder, the "so simple it is self explanatory" beaver text editor will work.
Alternately, without loading any extensions, you can use the "vi" text editor from a terminal window:
1. "vi /opt/.filetool.lst"
2. Press the "insert" key
3. Use the arrow keys to navigate to where you want to edit and edit.
4. Press ":wq" to save and exit
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This is becoming tiresome, and yet I remain diplomatic to yet another person who responded without reading what I typed. Let us pretend that I do not have a Postsecondary degree in computer science. In fact, do not pretend. Now let’s explore how yet we once again failed to communicate.
Really?? Who cares? I cannot access opt/.filetool.lst as there is no file manager. Installing a file manager does not help. If one restarts after installing a file manager, then the file manager is deleted.
Not if the emelfm, glib1 and gtk1 extensions are placed in a folder named /tce
This is becoming tiresome. What is so hard about step-by-step? What do you people feel to the need to show that your flawed documentation has value if only a few pointers are given? Yet another person who responded without reading what I typed. Let us pretend that I do not have a Postsecondary degree in computer science. In fact, do not pretend. You quoted my words without reading them. Amazing. Here it is again, so that you and the world can see for yourselves.
Really?? Who cares? I cannot access opt/.filetool.lst as there is no file manager. Installing a file manager does not help. If one restarts after installing a file manager, then the file manager is deleted.
Not if the emelfm, glib1 and gtk1 extensions are placed in a folder named /tce
Here is a question: If I cannot access one pertinent file, what makes you think that I could access the other pertinent file? This part of your response has no validity.
With the beaver, glib1 and gtk1 extensions placed in the /tce folder, the "so simple it is self explanatory" beaver text editor will work.
Alternately, without loading any extensions, you can use the "vi" text editor from a terminal window:
1. "vi /opt/.filetool.lst"
2. Press the "insert" key
3. Use the arrow keys to navigate to where you want to edit and edit.
4. Press ":wq" to save and exit
The preceding is useless since as I said time, and time again, I cannot access files in tinycore.
It seems to me that you Tinycore folks are unwilling to post step-by-step instructions out of fear that the documentation (I use that term most loosely) at http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html might appear useless to the public, especially if the public is coming from windows or a larger Linux distro.
I would greatly appreciate step by step instructions from some with a windows or Ubuntu background.
Please not waste each others time if all we are going to do is rehash tinycore's flawed documentation. I have stated my capabilities & experiences with Linux. My only obstacle in tinycore is the documentation and people who regurgitate it to me.
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Seems to me that you need a turnkey system which Tiny is not.
Seems to me that you need a true "vendor" that can support you.
A vendor with a documentation section or perhaps books like Windows & Ubuntu both offer.
If you think Core Concepts is useless then best to move on.
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Seems to me that you need a trunkey system which Tiny is not.
Seems to me that you need a true "vendor" that can support you.
I think you meant “Turnkey Linux.” Nope, not for me, for it would not be enough of a challenge.
Seems to me that you need a true "vendor" that can support you.
Neither grub nor Lilo are considered to be vendors, yet I've not had issue with...grub.
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If you think Core Concepts is useless then best to move on.
I refuse to believe that your opinion represents all of those associated with the inception of “Tinycore Linux.” Therefore, since I can also see the potential of Tinycore, I shall not be moving on. I’ve stated that I am not a Linux Guru, nor a windows IT. However, tinycore is well within my ability as evidenced by the examples of what I’ve accomplished in Linux. Step-by-step learning is also known as “rote learning” one of the simplest forms of learning. Google “common learning styles” and education administration if you doubt me. I believe that there are those in Tinycore community who do not want my question answered step-by-step as it would undermine the credibility of http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html, which is most certainly not step-by-step.
The greatest challenge for anyone moving from a larger Linux distribution (Ubuntu, Suse or PCLinuxOS 2009) to Tinycore will be http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html. What is my proof that it is invalid? Compare the install dcumentation: http://www.tinycorelinux.com/install.html to the post install documentation found at: http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html. Note the huge difference.
Let's ban him before more members of the public read this, or let's edit his post, then ban him. We post after his post & he'll never be able to say anything else.
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Do you know what a partition is? Does restore=hdXY confuse you?
Can you possibly try the following assuming you have an available partition hda2:
boot: tinycore restore=hda2 tce=hda2
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Do you know what a partition is?
Mk2fs.ext3 has always worked for me.
Does restore=hdXY confuse you?
Is this your way of asking if I know /dev/sda (hd0,0) & /dev/hda?
Does restore=hdXY confuse you?
Yes, especially since it is non-standard. There are no boot options for getting there. The system boots into “X” as soon as grub is selected.
Can you possibly try the following assuming you have an available partition hda2:
boot: tinycore restore=hda2 tce=hda2
Is this in terminal? Hda2 is my swap. If I add another disk, can I cfdisk & then run your commands there, or say hdb1? Maybe resize hda1 & create hda3?
well, good night for now
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Did you inheirt this system? How did you possibly install it using grub?
Is this a hard drive or a flash type device? If flash you will need another boot option "waitusb=5"
You stated that grub is no problem for you.
Don't you know how to edit a grub boot enry so that you can add the boot options that I mentioned?
After them after "quiet". So simple.
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Core Concepts is indeed not a step-by-step howto.
Adding the bootcodes "tce=hdaX restore=hdaX" to the boot arguments line (the kernel line) and a reboot should do what you desire. Use the partition where you wish your extensions and backup to be stored.
If you need an easier-to-use editor than command line vi, there are many available in the appbrowser. Of course the editor won't persist after a reboot, since it was installed before specifying these options; after the reboot, everything persists.
Robert's example is valid for the syslinux/isolinux bootloaders.
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If he is using grub as he stated, then no editor, no file manager is needed. Those boot codes are only initially needed and grub builtin editiing capabilites will do. The only exception is if this is a flash device then the wait option will need to "editied" to grub's menu.lst permanetly.
If he used a cdrom to do this grub install, then use the cdrom to boot with the boot options I have supplied. That will setup basic persistency.
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Core Concepts is indeed not a step-by-step howto.
Thanks, that is what I’ve been saying.
Core Concepts is indeed not a step-by-step howto.
Adding the bootcodes "tce=hdaX restore=hdaX" to the boot arguments line (the kernel line) and a reboot should do what you desire. Use the partition where you wish your extensions and backup to be stored.
Acknowledged!!
Thanks for the clarity!! Things can be simple.
Core Concepts is indeed not a step-by-step howto.
Robert's example is valid for the syslinux/isolinux bootloaders.
I loathe syslinux
Thanks for the info, but I will not play with it tonight. It’s too late here.
I anticipate great results, so again, thanks.
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Did you inheirt this system?
I believe the word is inherit. No I did not inherit this system. Would some consider your remark to be condescending? I wonder… nope, just humorous.
How did you possibly install it using grub?
Grub is only a bootloader. I downloaded the grub extension and then installed it to the MBR of hda. I then created and edited the menu.lst file as I done so many times on other distros.
Is this a hard drive or a flash type device? If flash you will need another boot option "waitusb=5"
Nope, not a flashdrive
You stated that grub is no problem for you.
Don't you know how to edit a grub boot enry so that you can add the boot options that I mentioned?
After them after "quiet". So simple.
Nope, I failed clairvoyance school as a child. Let see… Should I add your entries beneath existing entries, kind of like the memtest on larger distros? Do I copy existing entries and then append your entries to these copies. As I picture my other menu.lst experiences in my head, I see root, & kernel initrd and some options, none of which are reminiscent of tinycore's convoluted and confusing (instructions ?! ?) http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html. As you can see, in actuality, it's not so simple and communication is the key.
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My 5cents:
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I think what you, todiswed, tried to describe is just the feeling that 95% of newcomers have got.
You are right in every word. You bring it to the point.
Not being an expert and couriously visiting this tinycore page you can't fight the feeling these people don't want answer simple questions.
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In the meantime I think, that feeling is wrong. It's not they don't want - it's they can't.
It would happen to you too. When becoming an expert you change yourself, you gain expertise but loose your view for simple things.
When beeing a locksmith for example you may start explaining your great key systems but can't imagine anymore that your customer first needs to know that a house has got a door.
If your customer never heard of that funny thing called door, all your explanation is worthless to him.
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I'm convinced that's not possible to overcome this communication barrier by trying to do it better.
It's really a 'cant'. Being an expert you loose the ability to keep your explanation understandable for non experts. Doing it better from your point of view doesn't help at all.
What's needed is accepting the knowledge of being partially blind. The beginner is blind for expertise and the expert is blind for beginner problems, uses a vocabulary (e.g. 'boots into X') being esperanto for a beginner.
That taken in consideration there is the possibility for both parts to overcome the gap.
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An example for a practical solution to my opinion the the installation manual of tinycore:
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/install.html
Not that it would be easy to follow. It's still a pretty long way and most beginners will need 2-3 tries till they come through as any typo will ruin the process.
But at least the installation manual is a way a beginner can start successfully.
We would need more of such practical guides.
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And it's not to increase the amount of information. On the contrary the information has got ununderstandable as its too much of it.
What's needed is a hirarchy like an onion. An outer level explained with three sentences and to on.
That's my opinion at least.
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The preceding is useless since as I said time, and time again, I cannot access files in tinycore.
On the assumption that you can boot tinycore, could you explain more fully what you mean by "I cannot access files in tinycore"? Do you mean:
1. You don't know what command or application to use to access a file?
2. You do know what commands and/or applications to use to access a file, but you get an error message stating that you do not have permission to access a particular file?
3. Or something else? If so, please explain what.
The reason I say this is because if you can boot tinycore and you can click on the "Aterm" icon that looks like a monitor with ">_" on the screen and it opens a terminal window, then you can use "vi".
Also if you can boot tinycore and you have a working wired Internet connection, then you can use the "Apps" icon that looks like two cog wheels to download and install the "beaver" and "emelfm" applications - clicking on the relevant icons will then allow you to start these applications.
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Is there any way we can disable colors either in our own prefs or system-wide for those who abuse such features?
Seems to me that you need a trunkey system which Tiny is not.
Seems to me that you need a true "vendor" that can support you.
I think you meant “Turnkey Linux.” Nope, not for me, for it would not be enough of a challenge.
Never overestimate your own readiness for a challenge.
Neither grub nor Lilo are considered to be vendors, yet I've not had issue with...grub.
I believe Robert was referring to those distros which offer support in exchange for payment. For those who need much hand-holding, for those who have less interest in learning to manage things themselves than to hire someone more competent to do it for them.
I refuse to believe that your opinion represents all of those associated with the inception of “Tinycore Linux.” Therefore, since I can also see the potential of Tinycore, I shall not be moving on. I’ve stated that I am not a Linux Guru, nor a windows IT. However, tinycore is well within my ability as evidenced by the examples of what I’ve accomplished in Linux.
Let me address this sentence by sentence. Maybe you'll appreciate it that way since you seem to be so pedantic with your replies. First, Robert has been involved "since the inception of TinyCore Linux" because he is TinyCore's lead developer. He was also the lead developer of Damn Small Linux. Accordingly, you're probably stunned that his opinions carry a lot of weight around here. Much more than yours do. And his opinions end up being implemented in TC's base and everything else. So you might want to get used to that.
Second, those of us who were or have been involved with "Core" since its inception are more than willing to help you learn it. But are you even a good student? Or are you going to be the nasty little doggy who's only going to keep biting the hand that feeds it? Your decision to move on or not isn't going to matter if you continue with this attitude that you know so much better than developers and the community. The second part is something to which you might aspire and participate. Without the community, development, documentation, etc., simply doesn't occur.
Finally, I'm not nearly as confident in your abilities (yet) as you seem to be even if I overlook your forgotten password and choosing a second account rather than resetting your password via the link for those who've forgotten passwords.
...(edit) snipping lecture about learning theory...
The greatest challenge for anyone moving from a larger Linux distribution (Ubuntu, Suse or PCLinuxOS 2009) to Tinycore will be http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html. What is my proof that it is invalid? Compare the install dcumentation: http://www.tinycorelinux.com/install.html to the post install documentation found at: http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html. Note the huge difference.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion about barriers of adoption. I would submit that the larger barrier to new users is actually comprehending the concepts of TinyCore and that whatever new users may have learned while running through a stack of CDs that self-install and don't require you to actually understand very much (if anything at all) isn't necessarily applicable to TC's concepts. TC has a novel paradigm, as explained in at least one of the documents you keep complaining about. Resisting TC's paradigms makes using it a lot more difficult.
Let's ban him before more members of the public read this, or let's edit his post, then ban him. We post after his post & he'll never be able to say anything else.
Hahaha. It's more likely to happen to you if you keep going down this road with your condescending attitude towards developers and your insistence that your abilities are up to the task but you're unwilling and too impatient to learn.
I appreciate the TinyCore's paradigms might be frustrating if you're only familiar with conventional read-write systems whether other distros or Windows or Mac or whatever. Don't take your frustrations out on others who are trying to help. Sometimes it's easier to do what the documentation says and learn by doing. One of the things about TC that might benefit you in a "trial by fire" learning experience is that you can revert to the "pristine" state of your initial install without reinstalling.
I read a few of the posts in this thread and it seems that you expect TC to be as "easy" as other distros (even comparing it to the "top 8 at distrowatch"). Since day one, "Core" has never claimed to be "easy" or approachable for noobs; that said, I think it might be easier to teach a noob how to use it if the noob isn't already headstrong that it needs to work like other distros. It's especially difficult if you only want to approach it as any other distro. Slow down, read the documentation, install it on USB or just run from the CD until you feel comfortable with its concept. Be patient and respectful and you'll get it in return. Keep dissing and you're going to have a rockier time with the community than you're having with TC.
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i add my 2 cents too: i think that when you are relatively fresh to linux, you realize that there is a knowledge-base that is common to the use of any linux distro, as f.ex. using the command line, learning some of the basic unix functions at the command line (f.ex. cp, mkdir, rm, etc.), installing grub in the mbr, or syslinux a flash drive, or creating a menu.list file that suits your need etc. etc. For me, the objections that you make, todiswed01, have a lot to do with basic linux steps which require a knowledge-base that you only partially have. Your objections have then nothing to do with the TC concept and its supposed lake of informations. TC assumes that everyone has a sufficient amount of knowledge-base in linux in order to use the simple minimalistic but expandable system it is, nothing more, but nothing less too. From this point of view, each OS requires a knowledge-base for which there is a lot of documentations already existing in the internet which everyone who wants to use a system is supposed to read.
Now speaking about the TC concept: first things first, don't expect that you "install" TC on your hard disk, because TC does not do that. TC loads into RAM (you can read on the internet as well as in this web site the several advantages of it over a traditional installation). Your hard disk is then only a place where you can save the specific extensions which the TC team and afficionados provide, as well as your own data. If you understand that, you understand also why there is no step-by-step installation how to, since TC does not install on your hard disk. This also the reason why boot codes are important because they give you the possibility to drive what TC loads in memory, i.e. only the basic system, or the basic system with personalized parameters (like your timezone, your keymap etc.), or the basic systems + personalized parameters + some applications which have been called "extensions" as they extend the basic system. TC's goal is not to offer a complete workable environment at boot (as in other distro, even minimalisitc ones such as puppy); it delivers a kernel with some basic applications and daemons (available in the default menu and in the cpanel) that you can expand on your own regarding your needs with extensions.
An extensions is an application (like openoffice, abiword, xmms, etc.), and there is a lot of them already provided by the TC team and others. You can get extensions by downloading them with appbrowser to your hard disk (which supposes that you have an internet connection since appbrowser loads extensions which are on a server in the internet). If you want to load some of them when you are booting TC, you need to create a /tce directory on your hard disk, and you have to place the extensions that you want to be loaded at boot (i.e. when the TC basic system loads into RAM) into this directory. Depending on where you create your directory, you need or do not need to indicate the path at boot with a boot code (typically: tce=yourhardisk/agivendirectory/yourtcedirectory); if /tce is at the root of your hard drive, you don't need to use a boot code, TC will automatically find the /tce directory and load the extensions it contains.
With this, you have the very basic concept of TC, and you will find the needed informations to go further in the web site of TC. You will probably do some trials and get errors that you can't manage by yourself, and this is why the (very responsive) forum is there with users that can point you into the right direction.
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Naturally you can put it your way.
And obviously it's important to mention the who's who.
Robert Shingledecker, the creator of Tinycorelinux is doing a great job. And it is admirable how steady and calm he is able to respond to that 'nasty little doggy', who doesn't behave polite and respectful at all.
Maybe you even are right when limiting Tinycorelinux to an exclusive errorfree circle which never happens to forget that they can reset their password instead of creating a new account.
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But maybe the unspoken dream of the top developers is to open the great advantages of Tinycorelinunx to a far broader audience, possibly Tinycorelinunx being a kind of slashdotter one day.
I think it's possible. That's why I'm here.
And to make such dreams come true, such (nasty) postings might be very helpful, as they show how a lot (my guess 95%) of non-expert tinycore visitors really think.
Most visitors are far too polite. They think s***, dissapear and Tinycorelinux never gets to know what improvement is needed.
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To requote the words often used by tinycorelinunx experts, when they want to argue newcomers into a 'quick' learning process of several hundred hours, 'it's not that difficult'.
No, it's really not that diffcult for experts to take such nasty postings as example what to do better.
And doing so, maybe Tinycorelinunx one day really becomes kind of a slashdotter.
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In order to be able to help, what's the first thing you need to know?
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Re forgotten password, there's a link right below submit which asks, "Forgot your password?" I know because it had been about a year since I last posted here and I'd forgotten mine. Within a few minutes I had an e-mail with a link to reset my password. It's not about error-free circles. It's about being attentive about such matters rather than being trigger-happy and so emotive about things that one is compelled to get a new account just to continue posting in multiple colors, font sizes, etc. If one's not attentive about using one's account, it might be a reasonable assumption one is also inattentive when it comes to other documents.
As far as broadening the appeal, I don't think that's objectionable or undesirable. I can't speak for anyone else. As an ex-team member, though, I always operated on the assumption that this wouldn't be the perfect solution for everyone because I don't think there's a perfect solution for everyone. Different strokes, different folks.
I'm also not opposed to making things easier for others to understand. One of my tasks when I joined the team was to help put together documentation. Alas, things in my life interfered with all volunteer tasks and I dropped from the team. Work and family had to come first. Now that I have a bit more breathing room, hopefully I'll be able to make more time to add to and expand upon the documentation base for TinyCore.
What I wrote earlier about community involvement is paramount whether I'm involved or not. Some things take a back seat to others when there's only so much community involved. While some distros are able to piggyback on efforts of others and have more resources to dedicate to documenting the few changes they've made, TinyCore started with a handful of developers and pretty much a clean slate. There were a few principles already used elsewhere. But the fact is, there are compromises when few people are involved -- what gets more focus, making things work right or creating simple how-to guides so people can use what may not even be implemented yet?
Also as I wrote earlier, I can understand the frustrations of users who want it to work as simply as any other distro. As I intimated, I think it's easier to start with an inexperienced user -- a clean slate -- without the knowledge/experience of other ways of doing things and the expectations that come with that. Once you comprehend the underlying concepts, the Linux part of it falls into place. But if you refuse to comprehend the differences, you're going to fight an uphill battle.
Unfortunately, that uphill battle often turns into these kinds of exchanges. It shouldn't. But it will continue to. That's because some people project their own expectations on others -- your distro isn't as "pretty" as another, it's not as easy to use, it requires more effort to both understand and use, it's not as well-documented, and so on. And maybe they're fair in thinking the same the other way around that developers make too many assumptions. What's the middle ground? It sure as hell isn't petulant, multi-colored posts with big freaking letters suggesting developers be banned from posting in their own forums.
Back to the subject at hand, the complaintant hasn't so much as detailed his problems as he has his outrage. We can only help someone so much under those circumstances.
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Back to the subject at hand, the complaintant hasn't so much as detailed his problems as he has his outrage. We can only help someone so much under those circumstances.
It's your decision. What you can and what you can't.
Naturally you can limit yourself to your own species of visitors, tamed and trying to follow your cryptic commands.
Or you can try to approach the other 95% too. Then it's first you who'll have to learn, learn to be far more precise, understandable and less diffuse in your documentation - not mixing up different logical levels - and explaining with convincing examples instead of dumping inscrutable text.
If you think such improvement would be impossible, have a look on the installation example.
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/install.html
There you see - it's possible.
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Again, what is the first problem you'd like some help with?
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You know I am getting tired of all the whining that I have to put up with.
True, developers, don't make the best documentation.
I don't ask for monetary donations, I don't even have google ads here. All that I have ever asked is for help by contributing back to the community. Sharing knowledge.
Some have made wiki pages and for that I am thankful. Many have contributed extensions and without such we would not survive. But much more could be done.
For example, surely someone, could make short videos of how to setup and use Tiny Core.
The "record my desktop" type extensions are in the repository. Seems in this age of youtube a short video would be very helpul and much easier than being a wordsmith.
Instead of whinnig about things. How about giving something back, not to me personally, but to the project? Surely we have some that have an interest in such areas.
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Suggestion:
How about creating a separate forum section devoted just to general Linux problems, along with a sticky post explaining how to ask questions in a way most likely to get a satisfactory answer, such as:
1) State what you wish to achieve
2) State what you've done that hasn't worked
3) Post the relevant error messages
4) Post follow-ups when your problem is solved and how you solved it as a courtesy to those who've helped you and others having the same problem.
References:
http://www.gerv.net/hacking/how-to-ask-good-questions/
http://www.wikihow.com/Ask-a-Question-Intelligently
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
This way frequently asked Linux questions are contained to one section and become a repository of knowledge for future members.
It also highlights common problems where a wiki entry might be useful.
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....For example, surely someone, could make short videos of how to setup and use Tiny Core.
The "record my desktop" type extensions are in the repository. Seems in this age of youtube a short video would be very helpul and much easier than being a wordsmith.
On my to-do list, but the next two weeks (at least) I have my hands full. I was going to start on it before I left for Houston but had too much to do before taking time off from work. I'll see what I can do as I have time here.
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Suggestion:
How about creating a separate forum section devoted just to general Linux problems...
Or just put a "links" page somewhere to sources of such information if it's general info and not TC-specific. I'm not against making things easier, but there's already a wealth of Linux how-to and man page types of information already on the Internet. At some point people should take it upon themselves to use it rather than flood forums with repetitive requests for rudimentary info.
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there are already videos about tc on google video
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Tinycore has gone through many changes since release 1 and hence much of the independent videos and other documentation content is out of date. Moreover, think about the new changes to achieve a single extension system will have on existing documentation. TC/MC being a new distro is not mature enough yet to expect all that much to be spelled out step by step. Furthermore, tc/mc from the very beginning has been a "core plus building block" system not a turn key system. As such, I predict documentation will always be a difficult area for this distro.
Personally, I don't think tc/mc is for novices unless they are willing to really dig in deep and seek the help of others over an extended period of time. I say this based on my own experience. This is a system where if you are not already an expert you have to have a strong desire to learn new things. Like being on an adventure!
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My 5cents:
Actually, more like your $ 5. An interesting read, this was.
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I'm convinced that's not possible to overcome this communication barrier by trying to do it better.
It's really a 'cant'. Being an expert you loose the ability to keep your explanation understandable for non experts. Doing it better from your point of view doesn't help at all.
What's needed is accepting the knowledge of being partially blind. The beginner is blind for expertise and the expert is blind for beginner problems, uses a vocabulary (e.g. 'boots into X') being esperanto for a beginner.
I do appreciate the fact that you’ve taken the time to post. This I do mean most sincerely. With respect to what your quote above, your logic is sound; your logic is flawed.
New instructors (colleges) & subject matter experts (here, Linux) do not relate to ordinary people as you’ve stated. In college, I did not like some instructor’s teaching methods, so I researched the common learning styles. This enabled me to be more effective than the instructor with respect to teaching some students. Thus, retiring instructors loved my ideals while new instructors sometimes disliked me although I treated all instructors the the same.
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What's needed is accepting the knowledge of being partially blind. The beginner is blind for expertise and the expert is blind for beginner problems, uses a vocabulary (e.g. 'boots into X') being esperanto for a beginner.
Absolutely not, what is needed is an appreciation of how people learn. The simplest forms of learning are rote (this means repetition, just follow the steps) and example (screen-shots “monkey see, so monkey do”)
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An example for a practical solution to my opinion the the installation manual of tinycore:
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/install.html
Not that it would be easy to follow. It's still a pretty long way and most beginners will need 2-3 tries till they come through as any typo will ruin the process.
That's my opinion at least.
A quality tutorial does exist at the link described, and this tutorial is suitable for a newbie. However, the link that you provided simply underscores my point. Whether or not the author of this most excellent tutorial knows it or not, It was written in compliance with rote learning & example based instruction criterion. This tutorial, praised by you & I, is exactly how tutorial should be written; the tinycore concepts page, http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html is exactly how a tutorial should not be written.
That's my opinion at least.
Your opinion is valued and outstanding, considering that it comes from a layperson. However, as you’ve just read, your opinion has fundamental flaws. I sincerely thank you for your efforts and look forward to communication with you.
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As such, I predict documentation will always be a difficult area for this distro.
Documentation, does not have to be a problem for any distro. All it takes is the willingness to write or the willingness to liaison with those possessed of writing skills. When I've posted help tutorials, they've never been questioned, period. Yet I am no expert. thus, if I can do it, so to can others.
Personally, I don't think tc/mc is for novices unless they are willing to really dig in deep and seek the help of others over an extended period of time. I say this based on my own experience. This is a system where if you are not already an expert you have to have a strong desire to learn new things. Like being on an adventure!
I was not seeking help with anything complicated, so does not apply at this juncture. Thanks for sharing
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I read a few of the posts in this thread and it seems that you expect TC to be as "easy" as other distros (even comparing it to the "top 8 at distrowatch"). Since day one, "Core" has never claimed to be "easy" or approachable for noobs; that said, I think it might be easier to teach a noob how to use it if the noob isn't already headstrong that it needs to work like other distros. It's especially difficult if you only want to approach it as any other distro. Slow down, read the documentation, install it on USB or just run from the CD until you feel comfortable with its concept. Be patient and respectful and you'll get it in return. Keep dissing and you're going to have a rockier time with the community than you're having with TC.
You missed the point. One, I never claimed to be an expert, but I've alluded to doing far more than using self installing features. What you failed to realize is this has never been about basic Linux concepts; it's been about poor documentation that causes confusion.
Believe me, if the topic turns to, say, icewin, I admit that I am concept ignorant.
I
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Again, what is the first problem you'd like some help with?
Starting from the top
The install was flawless, so was the documentation.
I added the restore= entry home to the kernel entry
I added the home= home to the kernel entry.
I have to grub entries. one has the entries the other is plain
I can add leafpad & see the backup file.
The backup before shutdown or reboot seems normal. It happens too quick to read. The restart work normally.
]Problem: The system is not persistent, not on disk nor in virtualbox.
Please do not point me to the "tinycore concepts" page as I've stated time and time again, it's too convoluted to follow.
I thank you for your patience & time. I did not expect you to write to me again.
EDIT: To removed offensive shouting.
Offensive shouting is typically considered to be typing in all caps which I did not do.
Am I to believe that changing font color and font size is considered to be "offensive shouting"
I count as only one offense as I was typing my 2nd response while you were apparently flagging my post. I had not the time to react.
>>>
>>>
Here is my problem The system is not persistent, not on disk nor in virtualbox.
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Such a wordsmith we have here!
This enabled me to be more effective than the instructor with respect to teaching some students.
This says all I need to know about you. Your not asking for help, Your here to self promote. You achieve such by critizing others.
Definition of of the word concept
–noun 1. a general notion or idea; conception
To a wordsmith it should be obvious. But now we know how and why of the words you use.
What is wrong with the "tutorial" you and a few others praise?
What is wrong with a "Step by step" guide.
Let me give you a few minutes to contemplate...
A step by step guide is making all the decision for you.
That particular tutorial only applies to cloud mode.
Any third grader should be able to follow such pictographs.
Recall the Microsoft televison ads, I'm 3 and I'm a PC.
The words tiny and core I should also think would mean something to a wordsmithy.
How about "Not tunrkey".
Tiny Core and Micro Core as I have stated many times are about having many choices.
With choices comes decisions. To make effective decisions means to have or gain knowledge.
There exists no single way in which to run TC/MC.
You started your faux question by slaming, perhaps they don't teach manners anymore.
Via your wordsmithing, it has now become to time consuming to find a real viable question.
Not that was ever your intention.
Perhaps others will want to continue to read your rantings. I do not and will not.
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quote author=roberts link=topic=2817.msg14476#msg14476 date=1251578400]
Such a wordsmith we have here!
This enabled me to be more effective than the instructor with respect to teaching some students.
This says all I need to know about you. Your not asking for help, Your here to self promote. You achieve such by critizing others.
[/quote]
This simply states that I discovered long, that one does not need to be a subject matter expert to teach something. It also means that being a subject matter expert (college, Linux or the workplace) can be a barrier to one’s ability to teach. This is not self-promotion; this is called life.
What is wrong with the "tutorial" you and a few others praise?
What is wrong with a "Step by step" guide.
Let me give you a few minutes to contemplate...
A step by step guide is making all the decision for you.
That particular tutorial only applies to cloud mode.
Any third grader should be able to follow such pictographs.
Recall the Microsoft televison ads, I'm 3 and I'm a PC.
The words tiny and core I should also think would mean something to a wordsmithy.
How about "Not tunrkey".
Tiny Core and Micro Core as I have stated many times are about having many choices.
With choices comes decisions. To make effective decisions means to have or gain knowledge.
There exists no single way in which to run TC/MC.
Perhaps others will want to continue to read your rantings. I do not and will not.
Excellent point!
Now if it were organized…
Say, the basic steps for persistence
An examples of advanced options for persistence (in steps) while alluding to more choices then, I would not have to post in the first place.
Starting from the top
The install was flawless, so was the documentation.
I added the restore= entry home to the kernel entry
I added the home= home to the kernel entry.
I have to grub entries. one has the entries the other is plain
I can add leafpad & see the backup file.
The backup before shutdown or reboot seems normal. It happens too quick to read. The restart work normally.
Problem: The system is not persistent, not on disk nor in virtualbox.
Please do not point me to the "tinycore concepts" page as I've stated time and time again, it's too convoluted to follow.
I thank you for your patience & time. I did not expect you to write to me again.
Edited by roberts to remove offensive shouting. Second warning. Continue and your account will be suspended.
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Here is my problem
The system is not persistent, not on disk nor in virtualbox.
>>>
Starting from the top
The install was flawless, so was the documentation.
I added the "restore=..." entry home to the kernel entry
I added the "home=..." to the kernel entry.
I have to grub entries. one has the entries the other is plain
I can add leafpad & see the backup file.
The backup before shutdown or reboot seems normal. It happens too quick to read. The restart work normally.
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Here is my problem
The system is not persistent, not on disk nor in virtualbox.
Did you create a "tce" directory (PPR/TCE/TCZ mode)... or "tclocal" directory (PPI/TCE mode)?
GUI Method - tclocal directory only
1) Right-click on desktop
2) Select: Tools > Make tclocal File/Directory
3) Choose Device/partition:
/dev/hda1
/dev/hda2
/dev/sda1
(Note: your device list may vary)
Use down/up arrow keys to highlight desired device
Press Enter
4) Choose tclocal type:
(*) 1 Directory
( ) 2 File
Highlight option 1
Press Spacebar
Press Enter
5) Enter amount of diskspace to alocate
6) Press Enter
7) Reboot.
Manual Method
1) Open a terminal
fdisk -l
2) Choose a device (example: hda1)
3) Create the tclocal directory
mkdir /mnt/hda1/tclocal
... or tce directory
mkdir /mnt/hda1/tce
4) Reboot
--------------------------------------------------
Install your extensions.
They will now be saved to your selected partition and load up automatically everytime you boot.
{Edit: Corrected to distinguish between PPI/PPR modes.}
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Solved
Solved
Here is my problem
The system is not persistent, not on disk nor in virtualbox.
Did you create a "tce" directory (PPR/TCE/TCZ mode)... or "tclocal" directory (PPI/TCE mode)?
No, I was not able to glean that from the tinycore concepts page.
Here is my problem
The system is not persistent, not on disk nor in virtualbox.
[
Manual Method
1) Open a terminal
fdisk -l
2) Choose a device (example: hda1)
3) Create the tclocal directory
mkdir /mnt/hda1/tclocal
... or tce directory
mkdir /mnt/hda1/tce
4) Reboot
--------------------------------------------------
Install your extensions.
They will now be saved to your selected partition and load up automatically everytime you boot.
{Edit: Corrected to distinguish between PPI/PPR modes.}
This worked like a charm! I loved your simple writing! The Linux community definitely needs more people like you! I knew it was not that difficult as the "Tinycore concepts" page made it it out to be. Thank you for not simply rehashing that which I said made no sense to me. I would type "thank you" and marked this thread as solved in bold green text, but I'd probably get flagged for yelling again and then banned. :D
>>>>>>>
>>>>
Two Questions:
>>>>>>
Question1)Can I assume that what I have now is a Persistent Personal respository (PPR) into which I can place TCE & TCZ files?
Question 2) For PPI, just create a directory /mnt/hda1/tclocal, and then add the boot option of local=/mnt/hda1/tclocal to grub menu.lst, yes, no?
Thanks again, for being different than some, and thanks to those who gave me support through this ordeal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
Thanks, Thanks & thanks again combo3
Also, a special thanks to the newbie, JoXo009. Your insight is exactly what the Linux community needs.
I'd be willing to re-write or write another version of "tinycore concepts" anythoughts?
solved
solved
solved
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I would recommend using a tce folder rather than tclocal - this is more in line with how tinycore is meant to be used and will avoid "system rot".
If not already done, this can be created manually from a terminal window by:
$ sudo mkdir /mnt/hda1/tce
$ sudo chown tc:staff /mnt/hda1/tce
You can then copy any extensions you would like to be loaded on boot to the /tce folder.
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;D Casual reader: this thread is solved ;D
Jaunito, thanks for this tip!
I created another install using tce as you suggested. Opera, Mplayer, "Sound via OSS,"abiword, firefox, leafpad & Rox are online & persistent.
Also, again thanks to Combo3 (two post above this one) and the insighful JoXo009, for his words of wisdom on page 2.
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As far as I understood it, you would only use the home= option OR the restore= option, since restore means to use a backup file for persistence and home means to use a partition for persistence (both only refer to the user files in /home/tc, NOT the extensions).
Correct me if I am wrong.
fladd
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As far as I understood it, you would only use the home= option OR the restore= option
If you only use home but not backup, you can save files but not certain settings. For example, if you add a background image, you need to use backup to save it (unless you make an extension containing your backup images).
You can use backup and not home, but if you put a lot in backup it takes a long time when shutting down and starting the computer. If you save things in home and not home/tc, they are not saved in backup, so it is much quicker.
So it is normally best to use both.
The best way to use backup is to put it in the tce directory, so you don't need to specify the restore= option. Tiny core finds it automatically.
There are also other options. You can use encrypted home instead of home. This is slightly different again.
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I see.
But the backup is also loaded into RAM, right? So when having very little RAM on a machine this can become critical when the home is also in there.
So does this mean that if I use both, restore= and home= than everything in the /home/tc directory is saved on the hd and normally mounted (not in RAM) while specific settings like the background (although I don't get why this is not in home) will be loaded in RAM from the backup?
What would be the best/easiest on RAM install option then in general? Using home= restore= and only tcz I guess, right?
fladd
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home= opt= tce= and only use tcz
Also disable the backup prompt in .profile to export BACKUP=0
Warning you should still on occasion backup your data.
Also reduce cache size of any browsers
I don't recommend local= as not all extensions are PPI compatible.
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So when having very little RAM
What would be the best/easiest on RAM install option then in general?
In addition to using tcz extensions as already mentioned.
Having a huge backup can overload the ram and affect computer performance.
But before this happens, you normally notice it takes a long time to backup when you shut down, and start up when you turn on the computer.
Backup size can be reduced by saving large files in /home rather than /home/tc (if you use home=).
It can also be reduced by adding things you want to exclude to /opt/.xfiletool.lst. For example, you can add home/tc/.xfe if you use xfe file manager (otherwise it saves trash in backup).
For more info about backup, see
/backup.html][removed due to policy violation]/backup.html (http://[removed due to policy violation)
You can also make tcz extensions for things which will not change. These pages include info on how to make extensions for background images and printer.
/background.html][removed due to policy violation]/background.html (http://[removed due to policy violation)
/printer.html][removed due to policy violation]/printer.html (http://[removed due to policy violation)
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This thread was solved on the bottom of page 3.
>>>>
I posted in red since there is no mechanism to mark a thread solved. Also, I feel that there are others, who'd just want to know if the thread is worth following. In other words, "was it solved?" "If so where & how?" Otherwise, it might not be worth reading.
>>>>>>>
I wish there was some way to append the word "solved" to this post title or at least to the original post.
Whenever, it's not possible to mark a post's title as solved, I try to ensure that the first & last entry of the post is marked "solved." The goal is to reduce the need for a complete newbie (or anyone for that matter ) to engage in unnecessary searching. I do not know if I can add the words "solved on page 3" to the original post, (I tried & failed) but I would appreciate an administrator doing so. To those whose append to this post, I would like to kindly ask that you append the words "This thread was solved on the bottom of page 3."
Thanks in advance
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home= opt= tce= and only use tcz
Also disable the backup prompt in .profile to export BACKUP=0
Warning you should still on occasion backup your data.
Also reduce cache size of any browsers
I don't recommend local= as not all extensions are PPI compatible.
Thanks for the quick answer!
So /home and /opt are the only locations that are backed up?
fladd
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Yes, but only by default.
You control what can be included and excluded from the backup via the corresponding
/opt/.filetool.lst and /opt/.xfiletool.lst
These two files correspond to the tar -T and -X flags. See manpage of tar for more info.
It could be quite possible to have home= opt= and still desire a backup, especially if you have set passwords or other users. Again, it is up to you to add/change/delete relative file locations specified in these two files..