Virtual or Real

[roberts]

It is still cheaper to lose the cost of burning one cd than to buy even a used computer.
Don't ignore what is already provided in Core, the usbinstall script sets up the pendrive without the hassles of trying to do so with Windows utilities.

[JoXo009]

...  sets up the pendrive without the hassles of ... Windows utilities.

That's great

Supposing it has to be done the Windows way and even so resulting in the need to possess years of preknowledge in using a terminal I never tried and thus didn't know.


I think it would be very helpful, if the core fact

  an usb stick is created in three steps:

• burn CD with automated script
• start PC with that CD
• and the usb stick will be created automatically

would be made visible on first sight before starting the overload of 300 lines of expert text making many newcomers believe that it is useless to try.


So TC is great as well in

• setting up virtual machines for greater web security
• as in running a computer from an usb stick

A virtual machine setup can be automated that it works without preknowledge.

To automate the creation in a similar way resulting in

• a settings logic working without preknowledge*
• downloadable sample installs

would it be possible for an usb stick too?

_____________
* The control panel is a great approach to exchange GUI for terminal, but even so it's usage needs preknowledge -  a barrier for newcomers.
   To my opinion it's not so much the question of GUI or not GUI, it's more the question of creating a self explaining logic working for a newbie without any preknowledge - what's possible with jQuery like methods, presenting information just in time without producing masses of text making 99% of newbies run away.

[roberts]

Tiny Core  is not a turnkey desktop system. If newbie means it must look like Windows, operate like Windows, run inside Windows, and be aware of Windows utilities, then sorry. I don't run Windows.  I have no interest in Windows.

IMHO it is wrong to make Linux Windows-like for the sake of newbies. As I have stated many times, if newbies need a windows like Linux, there are distributions that accomodate.

I think it is far more important and interesting to explore alternate ways to run an operating system. It is why I am here and why I and the Team put forth the effort.

If some feel that there is a steep learning curve here, it mainly because of preconceived ideas which are expected when most all operating system have and continue to offer the same basics.

Tiny Core's  progress has been fast and continues to be, as such documentation is always behind.
But if those who can document, screen-drop, and or, make narrated videos would; it would be more helpful than trying to make Tiny Core Windows friendly.

BTW the pendrive installation is on the menu.  It is about as simple as it gets.


 

[althalus]

I think it would be very helpful, if the core fact

  an usb stick is created in three steps:

• burn CD with automated script
• start PC with that CD
• and the usb stick will be created automatically

would be made visible on first sight before starting the overload of 300 lines of expert text making many newcomers believe that it is useless to try.

Um... USB installer script aside, I've used the manual installation guide on the tinycore website a couple of times, and those instructions are clear and easy enough that there are only to skills needed to install tinycore (And as such, I have no idea why people have so much trouble - I can understand people who do not have strong english skills struggling, but for the rest of the strugglers, well...)...
* English Comprehension
* Ability to follow instructions

Nor do I remember the instructions taking 300 lines.

* The control panel is a great approach to exchange GUI for terminal, but even so it's usage needs preknowledge -  a barrier for newcomers.
   To my opinion it's not so much the question of GUI or not GUI, it's more the question of creating a self explaining logic working for a newbie without any preknowledge - what's possible with jQuery like methods, presenting information just in time without producing masses of text making 99% of newbies run away.

Think back to your first experience with windows. Did you just sit down in front of a windows machine and do everything without needing any help? No? Didn't think so.

Imagine you spent all your life working with Linux. Suddenly you need to start using Windows. It's going to be JUST as daunting to start learning windows as it is for others to start learning Linux. (I've actually run into this problem myself recently. When vista came out, I skipped it and moved to linux, now suddenly I have family members who want help with windows 7!)

[JoXo009]

I've used the manual installation guide on the tinycore website a couple of times, and those instructions are clear ...

You are absolutely right, the website Installation Guide is a perfect example for a user friendly kind of Linux.

Imagine you spent all your life working with Linux. Suddenly you need to start using Windows. It's going to be JUST as daunting to start learning windows ...

That's true too. It's not only Linux it's Windows too what needs to aquire several levels of user friendliness if it want's to be a mainstream operating system still in the year 2020.

In fact Im not arguing for or against Windows but for a more user friendly Linux.

Nor do I remember the instructions taking 300 lines.

It's a pity. Tinycore developers create so much great goodies, but many newcomers can't use them because nobody tells them where to find and how to use.

Let's take the example of the pendrive. Unfortunately there is no user friendly Installation Guide like the harddrive one.

The only Giude I know of is the 'Installing TC on USB' Guide in Wiki, which following 'WordCount' got 1,484 words in 316 lines in 111 paragraphs.



After stumbling upon a table of content signalizing that it's so much stuff that a table of content is necessary and stumbling upon general notes making confusion even greater Im glad to reach the title '2. usbinstall script: Installing within TC'.

No word until now, that I need to create a cd and that the cd will create the pendrive automatically, as explained above  'burn a cd, boot from cd, run usbinstall'

But never mind, at least an 'usb install script' is mentioned. Im advised
It can be found in the menu (Tools -> Usb install)

So I visit my TC menu:



But there is no usb install script  



Normal user reaction: 'That's just Linux, maybe the word 'menu' is used with a different meaning, some secret stuff I never will be able to understand. So forget about.

That's one of the reasons why screenshots are a must if you want to create a viable Guide. Only screenshots can prevent the common misunderstandings.

Screenshots can even prevent the misunderstandings caused by errors of the author himself, as this example demonstrates.



A screenshot would show, that the Tools menu of the default TC installation looks different and contains a line which reads 'USB Installation'.

So the newcomer instead of running away would visit the forum and ask where is the 'USB Installation' menu line in icewm - and the error could be solved.

Without screenshots such Guide is kind of useless for newcomers.



But it's not screenshots alone, it's more what's needed for user friendlyness.



The starting screen of the script is quite informative, but a newcomer would need 2-3 sentences of background information (not within the script, but as 'USB Installation Guide' on the website or in the Wiki

2-3 meaningfull sentences only with screenshots attached and USB install would be as user friendly as the harddrive Install Guide already is.

[roberts]

If you are going to complain about missing menu items, you should check the base system.
It is there, Tools->USB_Installation. So you should post in the tce area so that the extension you choose to use can be updated.

Tiny Core would not be tiny. if we offer man pages and extensive embedded documentation. Such is better off-line.

The Wiki is user documentation for and by users. So instead of complaing, how about contributing?

[tclfan]

That's true, virtualization works best on modern hardware.
But older hardware isn't excluded. Above results (two virtual machines working in parallel) were achieved with an old 2.6 GHz AMD Athlon on 900 MB RAM...

Your machine specs are still a powerful machine in my opinion. Using powerful machines to do things does not impress me and I was able to do the same in much older and modest hardware. I have been using virtualization (VMware) on Thinkpad T23 - 1.13Ghz with 512M memory on XP host with modest hardware demanding guest machines (such as XP). Recently I started using VirtualBox to migrate from VMware and it looks like equally good. I have not had the time yet to create a TCL VDI (process outlined by JoXo009), but to me to me discussion comparing whether to run TCL on bare hardware or in VM is comparing apples and oranges. It all depends on your objectives and purpose.
TC is meant as a high performance small modular system to run on bare metal and it is primary for TCL as OS. But it can be also made as VM guest, if you need/want to run in virtualized environment, e.g. for parallel systems. It is not one way vs. the other, but only depends on purpose and your intended topology you want to use.
I have been using TCL on USB stick and it works beautifully and very easy to install following the TCL 'usbinstall' procedure, which I recommend vs. unetbootin, which I also tried. I am looking forward to also building a VirtualBox TCL VM ones I get some time soon...
With both having their own merits uses, just to point out some thoughts:

1. You can put a TCL usb stick in any machine and boot TC as tiny high performance, all-in-memory system. Fully configured LiveCD would be even better, since some machines will not boot from USB... You cannot do such thing with TCL VM - you need to install a VirtualBox or VMplayer first and you may not be able to do that, of course...
2. In virtualized environment you can run TCL VM in parallel with the host OS and other OSs in their own VMs. You cannot do that with a TCL usb stick...
3. Performance in TCL VM will greatly depend on what host OS you are using and if you use type I bare metal hypervisors such as ESXi or Xen, then performance will be very close to running TCL natively on bare metal. If you use a type II hypervisor, such as VMplayer of VirtualBox, then performance will be affected depending on the host system.
In a word - all depends on your purpose...

[vitex]

1. You can put a TCL usb stick in any machine and boot TC as tiny high performance, all-in-memory system. Fully configured LiveCD would be even better, since some machines will not boot from USB... You cannot do such thing with TCL VM - you need to install a VirtualBox or VMplayer first and you may not be able to do that, of course...

See the Qemu Puppy project http://www.erikveen.dds.nl/qemupuppy/.

Suppose one installs TCL on a flash drive so TCL boots with a qemu virtual disk (tcvd=...) for persistent storage.  Suppose one also installs Windows and Linux versions of qemu on that same flash drive; the versions of qemu on Qemu Puppy only required a total of about 20 MB of space. 

Then TCL on that flash drive could be used in three modes:

• Boot on a bare machine.
• Execute on any Windows system using the version of qemu on the flash drive.
• Execute on any Linux system using the version of qemu on the flash drive.

That would be real portability.

[roberts]

However, the older machines that cannot boot from USB, would also be the same machines that struggle to run Qemu, or other virtual machines.

[roberts]

Perhaps those with such older machine that cannot boot from USB and are not powerfull enough to run virtual machines may want to peruse: http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php?topic=354.0

[tclfan]

Suppose one installs TCL on a flash drive so TCL boots with a qemu virtual disk (tcvd=...) for persistent storage.  Suppose one also installs Windows and Linux versions of qemu on that same flash drive; the versions of qemu on Qemu Puppy only required a total of about 20 MB of space. 
Then TCL on that flash drive could be used in three modes:

• Boot on a bare machine.
• Execute on any Windows system using the version of qemu on the flash drive.
• Execute on any Linux system using the version of qemu on the flash drive.

That would be real portability.

I do not think it works this easy in real life. I believe that running quemu as portable requires admin rights. It does need to install network drivers among other things that it does when you run it. In similar way, it would be very nice to have a portable version of VirtualBox that would not require admin rights, but it is not possible for the same reason at the moment...
In a word, it may look like it works this way for own machine, but will not work in general, performance and hardware requirements aside...

[vitex]

I do not think it works this easy in real life. I believe that running quemu as portable requires admin rights. It does need to install network drivers among other things that it does when you run it....

Here is a real-life example.  Boot the Tiny Core ISO and execute the following script, which extracts the statically linked version of qemu from the QEMU-Puppy distribution:

Code: [Select]

#!/bin/sh

# Download Qemu Puppy.
[ -r "qemu-puppy-2.17-1.tar.gz" ] ||
wget  http://cdnetworks-us-1.dl.sourceforge.net/project/qemupuppy/QEMU-Puppy/QEMU-Puppy%202.17-1/qemu-puppy-2.17-1.tar.gz

# Extract the statically linked version of qemu for Linux.
tar xvzf qemu-puppy-2.17-1.tar.gz allinoneqemu_linux

# Add libasound, on which it depends.
tce-load -w -i libasound.tcz

# Download Micro Core
[ -r "microcore_2.7.iso" ] ||
wget ftp://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/tinycorelinux/2.x/release/microcore_2.7.iso

# Boot Micro Core in a qemu virtual machine.
./allinoneqemu_linux -cdrom microcore_2.7.iso

You should have Micro Core running in a qemu virtual machine.  Use "ab" at the Micro Core console to install a package, which verifies that the virtual machine has network access without installing any drivers on the host (Tiny Core) system.

Qemu is purely a user-mode program unless you install the kqemu accelerator or try to use some form of bridged networking.

[tclfan]

Yes, indeed. It is bridged network and accelerator in quemu that require admin rights.
Thanks for reminding.

[K_evin]

Qemu ...

Quemu ?? - never tried.

Is it able to create Internet connection, resizable window, auto mouse detection, folder sharing etc automatically just by installing an extension as it's done by VBox-OSE-additions.tcz for example?

[vitex]

Qemu is does not provide the equivalent of VBox-OSE-additions.tcz.  It is basically a machine emulator with interfaces to the host OS.  The statically linked allinoneqemu_linux version of qemu is less than 1 MB in size.

• Internet connection
  The default invocation qemu -m 128 -cdrom tinycore_2.7.iso lets the virtual machine connect with the outside world.  Adding the "-redir" option qemu -m 128 -cdrom tinycore_2.7.iso -redir tcp:22001::22 lets the host use its port 22001 to access port 22 on the virtual machine.  There are other networking options that let the virtual machine appear to be a real machine on your local network.
  
• Resizeable window
  No, qemu makes no assumptions about the guest operating system, so has no way to tell X to resize a window.  The default invocation qemu -m 128 -cdrom tinycore_2.7.iso places the virtual machine's display in a host window that is not resizeable; its size is determined by the guest OS (e.g., xvesa=800x600x16).  Adding the -vnc :1 option connects the virtual machine's display to a VNC server within qemu.  You can resize the window of your VNC viewer, but that may cause you to have to scroll with VNC to see the full display.
  
• Automouse detection
  Qemu passes mouse events on the host to the guest.
  
• Folder sharing
  Qemu provides a SAMBA server through which the guest operating system can mount host directories.  I use sshfs to mount host directories on the virtual machine and virtual machine directories on the host.
  

See http://www.qemu.org/qemu-doc.html for more details.