WelcomeWelcome | FAQFAQ | DownloadsDownloads | WikiWiki

Author Topic: Get APPS with no internet on TC laptop? Load APS on boot from auto-mounted USB?  (Read 42048 times)

Offline grandma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • Never forget Grandma Loves You & made that candy4U
    • Back when a 10MB HD was $500 bucks
HDA6 didn't exist until I used a WINDOWS BASED partitioning system...had to use a Windows tool (didn't want to).

ELIMINATING Windows software is a key. I'll try to develop this "sequence":

1. User downloads a TC (?Svolli?) zip - not an ISO which also required a NEW Windows utility, whereas they ALL have Winzip already.

2. The zip is extracted to a folder on their Windows system.

3. A bat file I already wrote grabs that and installs the required files in the required folders, along with modifying boot.ini and installing Svolli's grub so the Windows boot can proceed normally if requested, or they can select TC.

4. The first time TC loads it goes through a DEFRAG and optimize process, getting all bytes crushed to as few cylinders as possible.

5. With blank cylinders available, TC then creates required partitions, leaving a bit extra for Windows swap and a few more downloads and processes. Users aren't giving up Windows just yet so this should probably be at least 1gig, 5 - 10 is better.

The rest is TC turf and should include:

- boot TC - ext2
- swap
- data - ext2
- winshare - fat32 - perhaps the largest TC partition until Windows is no longer used.

6. The Winshare partition is TC's gracious method of doing what Microsoft has refused to do - allow them to easily port files back and forth without using the NTFS-3g utility and the initial svolli version they had to install to complete this sequence.

7. Once these partitions are installed, and grub's menu.lst now contains:

a) Windows
b) TC on Windows
c) TC pure Linux

then a user can take a "test drive" of TC.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 04:12:35 PM by grandma »
~ Luv Grandma
"When children of all nations
play in the sandbox together
all morning-all day-all week, and
one fine sunny day; all year long ...
... then war will become an ancient memory
and Grandma can knit that sweater
you'll hold near to your heart
until long after you're my age.

Offline Rich

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11699
Hi grandma
Busybox has nothing to do with menus. It is the source of many commands and utilities used by TC and
many other Linux distros. Think of it as command.com on steroids. Google it if you want to see what
it's capable of.

To run a script using the command line either
1. Make sure the script is located in the path
  or
2. Type /path/to/scriptfile/scripttoexecute
  or
3. cd to the directory containing the script and type ./scripttoexecute

Don't forget to mark the script as executable using  chmod 755 yourscriptsname

Online Juanito

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14851
HDA6 didn't exist until I used a WINDOWS BASED partitioning system

...

I am sure its a simple 1 line permission issue (my guess) - but like the inability to save my wallpaper - not once in 5 weeks and close to 200 hours of use - and my inability to figure out how to get TC to do that - I think MC with a new interface based on either Firefox or Internet Surfer (with flash already built in) is the answer here to many many issues.

That's what I've been trying  to help you with - setting up a /tce folder on a linux partition so that you can load extensions on boot and make a backup reliably...

Offline grandma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • Never forget Grandma Loves You & made that candy4U
    • Back when a 10MB HD was $500 bucks
Like to dust G: (TC Fat32 boot partition) and the swaps and ext2 and once TC (or Micro Core) is installed it can prompt to "go fetch the wireless utilities" and get the system online but would be better if these and other utilities were PACKAGED and preconfigured for FIRST BOOT.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 04:44:35 PM by grandma »
~ Luv Grandma
"When children of all nations
play in the sandbox together
all morning-all day-all week, and
one fine sunny day; all year long ...
... then war will become an ancient memory
and Grandma can knit that sweater
you'll hold near to your heart
until long after you're my age.

Offline grandma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • Never forget Grandma Loves You & made that candy4U
    • Back when a 10MB HD was $500 bucks
Tiny Boots and once installed on a hard drive, remembers to load applications in optional.

Wifi script doesn't run auto on boot yet or consistently - will try modifying threshold parameters I read about.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 04:18:09 PM by grandma »
~ Luv Grandma
"When children of all nations
play in the sandbox together
all morning-all day-all week, and
one fine sunny day; all year long ...
... then war will become an ancient memory
and Grandma can knit that sweater
you'll hold near to your heart
until long after you're my age.

Online Juanito

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14851
Once that's done, perhaps I can return to Juanito's method of getting the USB drive to work as his tutorial suggests, as right now I am still getting errors that suggest the system can't see it - likely because no USB drivers are loaded - an issue of becoming more familiar with the kernel, boot, grub and how Linux sees all these files.

No drivers are necessary in tc to access usb sticks/drives - you can get more data on possible errors from "dmesg | tail -n", where n is the last n lines or "dmesg| grep usb"

Offline grandma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • Never forget Grandma Loves You & made that candy4U
    • Back when a 10MB HD was $500 bucks
REBOOT - select GRUB - Go to NTFS Svolli method - that works on hda1/tce/ folders described by Svolli.

I will retry putting something in /opt/bootlocal.sh - but thus far haven't got that to work although when I manually type wireless-2.6.33 etc in the folder, that works.

will also look for different file managers - that thing is a bit of a bear - may be better in tcz repo
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 04:19:53 PM by grandma »
~ Luv Grandma
"When children of all nations
play in the sandbox together
all morning-all day-all week, and
one fine sunny day; all year long ...
... then war will become an ancient memory
and Grandma can knit that sweater
you'll hold near to your heart
until long after you're my age.

Online Juanito

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14851
A couple of questions:

1. Are you storing files on an ntfs partition or a linux partition? You will experience several (many) problems in linux if you use files stored on an ntfs partition.

2. Have you stored your extensions locally? If you have stored them locally are they in a /tce folder on a linux partition?

3. Can you successfully make and restore a tinycore backup on/from a linux partition?

If the answer to all three of the above is yes, then it should be easy to solve all of your problems. If the answer to some/all of the above is no, then it is going to be more difficult.

I will retry putting something in /opt/bootlocal.sh - but thus far haven't got that to work although when I manually type wireless-2.6.33 etc in the folder...

If you can backup/restore in tinycore to a linux partition then I recommend to do something like this in /opt/bootlocal.sh:
Code: [Select]
/opt/script1.sh
/opt/script2.sh
...
/opt/scriptn.sh

You can then store and backup/restore your scripts in opt and if bootlocal.sh gets corrupted the scripts themselves will still be OK.

Quote
a) go to terminal, cd to the folder and type the .sh or .txt - doesn't matter what I call it - it says it is not found, but I type ls -l and there it is in my folder?

Since /opt is in the default path, scripts in /opt should run from anywhere. If you cd to a folder not in the path, you would need to type "./script.sh" to run a script. To open a text file, you would need to type "editor file.txt"

Quote
a) I need ALL PERMISSIONS and RESTRICTIONS REMOVED so anyone - anywhere - anytime - can click a script and it runs.
whilst not recommended, you can do this for a file/folder on a linux partition

Quote
b) I need to know that when I click a script I created with an editor it RUNS. I can't spend 2 hours trying to GET ONLINE so I can go find a CHOWN tutorial - but that's where I am headed now.
if you use a linux partition, you only need to use chown once

Quote
c) I need the environment I log into - as soon as this fires up - to mount everything - have the environment ready to work - going -
This can be done once your backup/restore from a linux partition to a linux partition is working

Quote
d) and what else is there besides FILE MANAGER? I can't see 80% of my files in there - the left pane is so small the files are all pressed to the right margin. Busy Box is - for all intents and purposes - perhaps a wonderful tool for embedded software and completely, 110% useless for any sort of office in this century. Absolute nightmare.

There are many file managers in the extensions repo - I use emelfm (as opposed to emelfm2), but there are several more and less sophisticated options available via apps browser.

Offline grandma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • Never forget Grandma Loves You & made that candy4U
    • Back when a 10MB HD was $500 bucks
/mnt/hda1/opt (the NTFS partition) AND

/mnt/hda2/opt (the FAT32 pure TC use partition) AND NOT

/RAM/opt - since that is transient - right?

Will try the file managers you suggest.


JUANITO: 1. Are you storing files on an ntfs partition or a linux partition?

ANSWER: BOTH via these THREE methods.

=====================

BOOT 1) W2K USING BOOT.INI/NTLDR TO NTFS

I can read/write to the:

C:/hda1 - NTFS (which also has the Svolli boot files)
G:/hda2 - FAT32 (which has the TC and MC normal boot files)
C: & G:, along with 2 other partitions are all on the same physical hard drive

Also:
E:/sda1 - FAT32 Main USB Flash
H:/sdb1 - FAT32 Experiment/wipe/swap to other laptop USB Flash - basically my NETBOOTIN/LINUXLIVE Pen Boot on other "hot shot neaer new" laptop which is currently dead - can't get partitions fixed there. The Arch Install wasted that $1,100 machine and no amount of attempts, recovery distros - name it - have gotten the partitions straightened out yet.

BOOT 2) GRUB - TO TC VERSION-SVOLLI ON C:\TCE

All of the above - plus I can see the Linux partitions and can mount everything.


The wifi has to load and stay online and scan and if it drops, re-connect, fighting the cross-traffic, verifying it has the right SSID (channel verification is not enough) and completing each test cycle with a clear PING -C4 to google or elsewhere.

then Firefox needs fire up every time the system boots, since 90% of the time I am online anyway.

and Music to work (I miss my tunes and flash videos badly - I am a classical pianist and live by this stuff when working)

and Perl to work (we already did that so we know we can)

and Skype to work (haven't tried that yet - but its crucial or my secretary sorta flips a lid if she can't reach me)

and FTP so I can continue to get to my 2 co-lo boxes using the FTP scripts I already have - this is where I do 90% of my actual work

and a PDF reader (I don't do Word or Excel) - I have a browser that instantly makes a PDF on print and a utility, but need a Linux based reader

and GIMP (love it, spend a lot of time in there, and its a rockNroll Linux ap)

and GNUMERIC (basic spread sheets is really all I need - I have engineers who like the fancy macro stuff of Excel - I don't go there - I'd rather write my own code)

and a "VNC-Like" utility that gets me onto another box via a Windows Server 2003 (I hate that box but it ain't mine) - which uses "Windows Remote Desktop Connection" (hate that package too - prefer VNC). That web master - a good friend of mine - is willing to migrate that stuff and entire box to Linux/TC once I get the TC Web server and my perl scripts there working

and/or (worst option to me) a W2K Emulator on my laptop that runs whatever doesn't work in Linux to run in a "W2K Shell" where Linux is the primary boot. That would work also but would probably muck up TC.

OUT OF THESE, MY PREFERRED METHOD - keep Windows 2000 on the Dell laptop. Turn it off and never turn it on again. Make that a 100% Linux box.

A  VIA board uses 1/10th the power of the laptop and that is another issue since power ere is always a struggle. Fortunately its been very windy these days and I make wind generator rigs...heh heh

I learned CHMOD -rwx-rwx-rwx *.*

I did that to the entire OPTIONAL directory and POOF - my .sh files began executing and I could see them.

I sudo iwlist wlan0 scan >wifiscan.txt, then pop open editor, see if antenna was seeing the SSID I logged into - sometimes yes, other times no.

- if there, then re-run sudo iwconfig wlan0 essid "MyHotSpot" - sleep 10 - sudo udhcp -b -i wlan0 then do a ping -c4 test

I'd go back to Firefox (which was open at a page not found) - click RETRY and wait wait wait - ka-ching - got it - could go to the next page.

I need to automate wifi scan in a background LOOP/TEST cycle and threshold fragment. Have an article on setting that with iwconfig I am going to go try



I assume this should be the folder structure of Linux

/usr
/etc
/bin

JUANITO: 3. Can you successfully make and restore a tinycore backup on/from a linux partition?

Haven't tried that and if I did, I'd be booting NTFS/W2K and using DOS XCOPY (verysad).

I executed my -FIRST EVER SUCCESSFUL- CP cross-directory command last night.

JUANITO: If the answer to all three of the above is yes, then it should be easy to solve all of your problems.  If the answer to some/all of the above is no, then it is going to be more difficult.

Yes - its a tough nut to crack - and I think the problem areas right now:

The WIFI SCANNING UTILITY to restore/keep the system online no matter what - will help and Firefox - dumped Opera - FF works with TC, has never crashed.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 04:26:49 PM by grandma »
~ Luv Grandma
"When children of all nations
play in the sandbox together
all morning-all day-all week, and
one fine sunny day; all year long ...
... then war will become an ancient memory
and Grandma can knit that sweater
you'll hold near to your heart
until long after you're my age.

Offline jur

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
    • cycling photo essays
I wonder if most of the problems originate from trying to make linux work on a win partition - ie file permissions not supported. I came unstuck there pretty quickly as well, trying to make my ~HOME on a FAT32 partition. Errors galore.

Instead of wrestling with this thing as you have, why not go the easy way out and use ext3 fs?

Online Juanito

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14851
and info on making scripts in /OPT/ so I will try that - I assume you mean

/mnt/hda1/opt (the NTFS partition) AND

/mnt/hda2/opt (the FAT32 pure TC use partition) AND NOT

/RAM/opt - since that is transient - right?
No, I mean the /opt in ram where they will be backed up/restored automatically once you the tinycore backup working - you will be plagued by permissions problems with scripts forever if you keep them on a windows partitions

Quote
then Firefox needs fire up every time the system boots, since 90% of the time I am online anyway.
If tinycore recognises your linux partition /tce folder then you can add firefox to the /tce/onboot.lst file and it will automatically load on boot.

Quote
a) begin developing "good Linux habits" and migrating files to a folder structure that Linux typically uses: I see the USR folder, but not sure how that plays out - am guessing its /USR/Joe and /USR/Jane and /USR/Fred etc.
Good guess, but no - it's /home/Joe, /home/tc, etc and everything under /home/tc is backed up automatically once you have the tinycore backup working.

Quote
I can also create any folders required under G:/TCE (or the C:/TCE)

I assume this should be the folder structure of Linux

/usr
/etc
/bin
There is no need to do this, tinycore automatically creates all these in ram

Quote
JUANITO: 3. Can you successfully make and restore a tinycore backup on/from a linux partition?

Haven't tried that and if I did, I'd be booting NTFS/W2K and using DOS XCOPY (verysad).
Making this work to your linux partition should be the first priority, it will help tremendously with everything else.

Offline MikeLockmoore

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 525
  • Good software needn't be big!
Quote
d) and what else is there besides FILE MANAGER? I can't see 80% of my files in there - the left pane is so small the files are all pressed to the right margin. Busy Box is - for all intents and purposes - perhaps a wonderful tool for embedded software and completely, 110% useless for any sort of office in this century. Absolute nightmare.

Hi.  I'm the author of the "Absolute nightmare" file manager Fluff, AKA FileMgr in the default TC desktop.  The default size is quite small and does tend to squish the directory tree and file details list, but it is easily resized by dragging the middle margin between the left and right panes, and you can resize the entire window in the normal FLWM ways.  Assuming you have an installation that will backup your $HOME directory, your custom size info will be remembered the next time you open Fluff/FileMgr.  Besides that, if you have continued issues with it, please post a report in a new thread.

That said, Fluff/FileMgr is intentionally light and plain (some say "ugly"  ::)).  If you want a more full-featured file manager, I often recommend XFE, which is in the Tinycore app repository.  ROX is good too, but rather unorthodox if you are used to Windows Explorer and similar ones.

Offline grandma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • Never forget Grandma Loves You & made that candy4U
    • Back when a 10MB HD was $500 bucks
Thank you Mike - for the reviews on file managers. Tried dragging middle bar to resize - didn't wanna play - will try again.

Juanito - I will try booting to G: - pure Linux and see if I can get bootlocal.sh to fly - and set Firefox to fire on boot. Is there a method to make that happen on the VERY FIRST TIME TC RUNS if FF is in /tce/optional folder? - such as an the "APPEND" command in the Grub call?

such as bootlocal.sh calling "gofox.sh" - except bootlocal.sh doesn't exist until AFTER a backup installs it on subsequent boots - gonna be tricky.

thought a command like

tce-load -i firefox.tcz

such as the wifi we used earlier - which you mentioned don't like being called on a boot

perhaps a "SLEEP 5" from bootlocal.sh - that launches a gowifi.sh script



~ Luv Grandma
"When children of all nations
play in the sandbox together
all morning-all day-all week, and
one fine sunny day; all year long ...
... then war will become an ancient memory
and Grandma can knit that sweater
you'll hold near to your heart
until long after you're my age.

Online Juanito

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14851
Is there a method to make that happen on the VERY FIRST TIME TC RUNS if FF is in /tce/optional folder? - such as an the "APPEND" command in the Grub call?

If you have tce=hda6 in your grub boot line, you can use something like this:
Code: [Select]
$ echo 'firefox.tcz' >> /mnt/hda6/tce/onboot.lst..or you can use the apps audit gui tool "onboot" button  if you have booted in tinycore.

Note that this assumes firefox.tcz, firefox.tcz.dep and libasound.tcz, curl.tcz and libnotify.tcz and their deps (if any) are present in /mnt/hda6/tce/optional

Quote
such as the wifi we used earlier - which you mentioned don't like being called on a boot
I don't think I said wireless_tools.tcz and wireless-2.6.33.3-tinycore.tcz could not be loaded on boot. If you want to load them on boot, ensure wireless_tools.tcz, wireless_tools.tcz.dep and wireless-2.6.33.3-tinycore.tcz are present in /mnt/hda6/tce/optional and add wireless_tools.tcz to /mnt/hda6/tce/onboot.lst

Note: the above assumes tinycore has recognised /mnt/hda6/tce as your /tce folder

See also: http://wiki.tinycorelinux.net/wiki:persistence_for_dummies
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 08:32:16 AM by Juanito »

Offline grandma

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
  • Never forget Grandma Loves You & made that candy4U
    • Back when a 10MB HD was $500 bucks
Juanito - you are a fountain of easy tips to follow. Thank you.

Got 300 lines of "wifiez.pl" done last night - will be testing.

... not quite sure where I would put these. Right now I am using:

\tce\uaps\uscripts

\tce\uaps\bin

and

\tce\uaps\data



p.s. I would add 10 - 20 examples to each of the Dummies pages,:

EXAMPLES:

Example 1. To use the default settings,

Example 2. To save your settings to a USB or hard drive in a special folder on your own media:


Example 3: a simple test to save your desktop image.

Example 4: you want TC to log onto the internet and open a browser everytime you boot.

Example 5: you want a special script to run when you boot

a)
b)
c)

Example 6: Let's make a script that says "Good day" and then waits for you to hit enter before you get your desktop.

Example 7: you want a special script that does something when you shut down.

Example 8: you want to save your browser settings. Each time Firefox loads it "forgets" things like your home page unless you have something like this:

Example 9: you want  a particular mp3 to start playing everytime you boot.

Example 10: setting up what applications are loaded when you boot. Some folks want a browser to load, others want a media player or a software language like Perl. Use the Application Manager to set up which TCZ files load "ON BOOT" or "ON DEMAND".

sort kindergarten - like this:

a) Go to control panel
b) Select Application Manager
c) Select On Boot
d) The tcz files you already loaded will be listed.
e) Click one and it will move to the right panel.
f) Select more than one, but remember this can slow down your boot and you may want to use the ON DEMAND option instead.
g) Exit the ON BOOT option by clicking ON BOOT at the top and your settings will be saved.

Now select On Demand

a) You will see your TCZ files you have loaded.
b) Repeat the click on left, it moves to the right, and creates a list of On Demand applications.
c) Then click On Demand and exit this utility.

Perhaps some utility you want hasn't already been loaded. Here's how to go get those:

a)
b)
c)

Now repeat the On Boot or On Demand steps and these will be automatically loaded according to your preferences.

Example 11: lets say you wanted to get rid of your "Windows Web Server" (rather well known for being a security risk), and install a faster, tighter more robust server and also include Perl.

(suggested examples only - not accurate)

a) Go get these files

b) put this in On Boot with Ap Mgr or you could also just load these lines in onboot.lst with the command

echo 'serverprogram.tcz' >> /mnt/hda1/tce/onboot.lst (assumes hda1 is your hard drive used to boot)
echo 'perl5.tcz' >> /mnt/hda1/tce/onboot.lst

c) now after configuring your web server it should load and begin serving web pages each time your system reboots.

For more information on configuring and using one of several web server ap tcz files, visit the repository or forum links. Here are a few of them to get you going.

a)
b)
c)

More complicated examples:

Example 13: Your boss wants you to have a spreadsheet ready every day by 10. Every day you have to go to a web site and check the current price of gold and silver (or wheat, copper, or great laptop deals at a wholesale site - whatever), and post the top ten best deals as raw data in a file.

You used to use Internet Explorer and Excel, and you have found that Firefo and Gnumeric does everything you need.

You can:

a) continue using your Windows programs and wait and wait for it to boot ... and load ... and sometimes crash, or

b) have Tiny Core ready to go in a little over 10 seconds, and be in your spread sheet program the first thing every morning when you boot up, and playing your favorite music in the background. Here's how:

1. Get the files

a)
b)
c)

2. Set up the Ap Mgr On Boot Command or onboot.lst - here are both methods:

a)
b)
c)

or

a)
b)
c)

3. Notice that to open that particular media (album) you need to tell the media player where the songs are and usually this is best done by putting those songs in a specific folder, such as

/usr/mary/mybands/mymorningband/

and in that folder, put in their MP3's you downloaded from their web site, such as

song1.mp3
song2.mp3
song3.mp3

Now:

1. Run your media player (see above on how to get that)

2. Select File Preferences Play List and then Play from Folder. You should see the folder of your favorite morning group's album. If not, here is how to find it:

a)
b)
c)

3. Save your settings, then test them by running the media player again. If it remembered your folder with the album, the music should start playing right away.

Now let's get that spreadsheet working:

1. Get the tcz file. Firefox has become pretty popular and is very stable.

a) do this

b) do that

c) and do this to make sure your home page and book marks are saved. Perhaps this is your page your boss wants you to visit each day to get your data.

Now let's get that spreadsheet working:

1. Get the tcz file. Many people like Gnumeric. Here's how:

2. Now let's make a script that loads both the media folder and Gnumeric at the same time.

a) Open the editor - here's how to do that:

b) The first line of a .sh script should always be the old she-bang and this and that. It looks like this:

c) The next 3 lines makes sure your drive with your media and programs and spreadsheets has been mounted.

d) The next line runs the media player. If your play list settings were saved, it should start playing your morning album.

e) The next 3 lines automatically logs you onto the Internet and runs Firefox.

Note: You may need to tinker with these lines  to get connected with a wifi or ethernet system. More details on that in example 14 below and at "this link". These lines are just examples and you will probably have to change a few things. Here's one example of all the lines to make your system automatically go live on the internet with ethernet and open Firefox:

Here is an example of making it do that and go live with wifi and Firefox:


f) The next line runs Gnumeric and automatically opens the right spreadsheet. Then you can cut and paste the data from the web page to the spread sheet. Here's how:

Here is what it all looks like together. The good thing about scripts is once you have made them, you only have to type them once and they usually run consistently each time - all automagic.


Poof! You get to make your boss happy and you get to smile while you use a spreadsheet program and media player that won't crash, and only took a few seconds to load.

Try a timed test:

a) Turn off your PC.

b) Look at a watch and note the exact time as soon as the first word - any word - appears on the screen, such as RAM or Press F2 for Bios - anything at all.

c) Reboot and go back to Windows, after it finally boots, open your media player and start your album.

d) Then connect to the internet and open IE and go to the site.

e) Copy the data and then

f) Open your spreadsheet and paste the data there.

Now look at your timer. How long did it take?

Now let's try that with Tiny Core and your new script. Get ready with your stop watch and then reboot and start the timer as soon as you see Press F2 for Bios or anything at all.

1. Follow the same steps and cut and paste the text into your spreadsheet.

2. Stop the clock and compare the time.  Now gently explain the results of your test to your boss.

Example 14: some other tricky persistent tip the gurus know that is often very helpful

etc.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 04:32:05 PM by grandma »
~ Luv Grandma
"When children of all nations
play in the sandbox together
all morning-all day-all week, and
one fine sunny day; all year long ...
... then war will become an ancient memory
and Grandma can knit that sweater
you'll hold near to your heart
until long after you're my age.