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Author Topic: What's the future direction of TC?  (Read 29651 times)

Offline SvOlli

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2010, 12:51:17 PM »
I believe everything should be made as easy as possible for new users.
I beg to differ. The intension of Tiny Core never was to attract new (Linux) users, but as I understand it, to provide the most Linux per byte. That's why I'm using it.

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I have been using Linux for many years now. But I remember when I first started, it took some time to learn the basic concepts. These things are easy for me now. But I think of others who are where I was.
Which distro did you start with? I guess it was something like SuSE, RedHat, or Ubuntu, a distro targeted also to new users. Nobody I know started using Linux with a distro like Gentoo, Linux From Scratch oder SourceMage, where you need to assemble parts of the distribution yourself. And TCL is also a distro for users who know, what they're doing. If you want a live distro for new users, take a look at Knoppix. It's the live distro with the best "new user"-appeal I can think of.

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Tiny Core should also finish up with a professional wiki, where the information is correct, up to date, easy to understand, and covers a broad range of subjects. It can't be done immediately, but it should be the long term aim. Why should we be happy with the Tiny Core web site being less professional than the web sites of other distros?
The problem is that compared to most of the "other distros" you'll probably have in mind there are only very few people pushing TCL forward. And they do an awesome job accomplishing this. Speaking for myself, I have more fun adding code to this project than adding documentation. And all I do on TCL, I do for fun only. The most interesting part of an open source community is that you can point out that something needs to be done better by doing it better and contribute your work.

Offline curaga

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2010, 02:17:59 PM »
My first linux was LFS :P
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Offline tinypoodle

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2010, 02:51:53 PM »
I have been using Linux for many years now. But I remember when I first started, it took some time to learn the basic concepts. These things are easy for me now. But I think of others who are where I was.

That's exactly what was in my mind. Using a command with the option '--help' has in many cases been sufficient to successfully complete a task for me since the very beginning of starting using Linux, and it is nearly as essential to me now as it was back then.

Now a disadvantage of TC for new Linux users may be the incomplete presence of built-in documentation, e.g. 'whatis', 'info', 'man' et al.
However, those following this forum may have noticed that there is work in progress going on recently to improvement in that department, even if in the form of extensions rather than in base.
And a reduction of built-in documentation is something common for all size optimized distros I have ever seen and nothing but expectable.
"Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster." Niklaus Wirth - A Plea for Lean Software (1995)

Offline tinypoodle

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2010, 03:05:55 PM »
I believe everything should be made as easy as possible for new users.
I beg to differ. The intension of Tiny Core never was to attract new (Linux) users, but as I understand it, to provide the most Linux per byte. That's why I'm using it.

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I have been using Linux for many years now. But I remember when I first started, it took some time to learn the basic concepts. These things are easy for me now. But I think of others who are where I was.
Which distro did you start with? I guess it was something like SuSE, RedHat, or Ubuntu, a distro targeted also to new users. Nobody I know started using Linux with a distro like Gentoo, Linux From Scratch oder SourceMage, where you need to assemble parts of the distribution yourself. And TCL is also a distro for users who know, what they're doing. If you want a live distro for new users, take a look at Knoppix. It's the live distro with the best "new user"-appeal I can think of.


Fully agreeing on the above... wait, that was only valid until I just now read of an extremist starting with LFS  :P
I have often recommended Knoppix to people just wanting to use Linux with the least hassle.
Now when it comes to users being serious about sincerely wanting to start to learn Linux, my recommendation has often been Slackware.
And for those trying to understand the basics, tinkering with tomsrtbt sure can't harm (even TC would seem like a luxury software suite in comparison  :P )
"Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster." Niklaus Wirth - A Plea for Lean Software (1995)

Offline dentonlt

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2010, 01:53:54 PM »
EDIT: if TC is going in the direction of 'configuration reproducibility/portability'

Script/tool to export/import "migration file".

For reproducing a TC installation from one computer to another, assistance changing from one TC version to another? An export file might include onboot.lst, ondemand.lst, a current mydata.tar.gz (if not using persistent home/opt), and a stamp which says what TC version it was built on. On import, use all that info to replace everything, update all the extensions, reassign those as onboot/ondemand, etc.

Offline Guy

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2010, 12:35:54 AM »
These things are easy to do manually.

There are many other things which are much higher priority.


1. Copy to another computer.

If someone does make a script to copy Tiny Core from one computer to another, I think it needs to take into consideration all common options, and needs to give the user choices. For example:

Some people use backup, some use persistent home and opt, and others use both. It should allow for all possibilities.

In some situations the user would want to copy over personal files, but if you set up a computer for a friend, you may want to exclude personal files.

In some situations, you may want to keep the same applications in On Boot and On Demand. In other situations you may want to set it up differently.

I think the best way to do this would be to install it on a usb drive, and use the usb drive to install it on the other computer. Including the appropriate files.


2. Updating to new versions.

With some updates, you can just copy over the new versions of bzImage and tinycore.gz.

With other updates, other files also need to be changed.

When you update from 2.x to 3.x, you basically need a new installation, as you also need all new extensions.

If you did have a script for updating, what would it allow for? If it just copied over the new versions of bzImage and tinycore.gz, and this was used in other situations, some things would not work properly, and malfunctions may occur.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 12:37:37 AM by Guy »
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Offline Ariya

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2011, 10:52:29 PM »
If I may add my 2 cents...

Someone here was "wishing" that TC would come up to the top ten...and another asked what top ten? So, the answer was Distrowatch.

Actually, Distrowatch's "list" is just a farce, and it doesn't give a real picture of the Linux World at all! There is a comment on this "list" in their comments section as below...

"When the distro gets in the DWW list and the developers keep on sending new releases with slight changes, they keep the readers of DWW reminded of their distro, just like an ad in the TV. Some developers take quite a time to send in new releases lose TV-advert like remembrance, and the position of the DWW list falls.

Strangely, there is a distro named Moblin still hanging on the 98th position, while that distro is not there even in Moblin’s own website! It had been merged into MeeGo and now Meego is looking to release 1.2 version. MeeGo is in the 37th position. How come a non-active distro is still hanging in at any position of the DWW list?

Are we getting a real look of the Linux distro world by looking at the DWW list is the question?

1st in the list has 2104 hits, while the 5th has only 1154 hits, meaning practically 50% less!

The 10th in the list has only 661 hits, which means only ~31% from the 1st one.

The 50th in the list has only 173 hits, which is just 8,2%!

The 75th on the list has only 118 hits, which gives 5.6%!

The 100th has only 100 hits, which is 4.7% from the 1st!

Now, there is a question; is this DWW distro list is correct and show how the Linux world look like, or quite wrong?

What say you, readers?"
--------------------------------------------

I thought about it for a while too, and it is correct, the Distrowatch "list" is a farce.
If you look at the its Home Page, it is only full of other developers release notes (or parts of them)

I have a feeling that people, who use Tiny Core, Puppy Linux, Austrumi, Slitaz, etc don't even look at the Disytrowatch "list" at all, for they are quite busy with these extraordinary Operating Systems!

Sorry, if this is off point...

Offline sky

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2011, 02:52:05 PM »
Quote
I have been using Linux for many years now. But I remember when I first started, it took some time to learn the basic concepts. These things are easy for me now. But I think of others who are where I was.
Which distro did you start with? I guess it was something like SuSE, RedHat, or Ubuntu, a distro targeted also to new users. Nobody I know started using Linux with a distro like Gentoo, Linux From Scratch oder SourceMage, where you need to assemble parts of the distribution yourself. And TCL is also a distro for users who know, what they're doing. If you want a live distro for new users, take a look at Knoppix. It's the live distro with the best "new user"-appeal I can think of.
I disagree. I used Windows XP until 2007. Then I switched to Ubuntu, because Windows Vista was to oversized and complicated. Ubuntu was much more easier. If something needs special permissions you will asked to enter your password - once! In Windows Vista many times during one installation process of unlicensed peace of  software or hardware driver. Making MS Office PlugIns working became in some cases impossible. Configuring WLAN Ad-hoc under Windows Vista successfully was by hazard. If there is no workaround available then you have to edit the registry full of cryptic key-names. And so on... I believe some people were frightened by the unintuitve Linux versions in the late 90s. But today young people not influenced by the negative experiences of the older generation, don't have any problems with Linux. My girlfriend bought a 64Bit Notebook without any OS and asked me to recomend her an OS. I recomended Linux. She doesn't know what she does. She doesn't know the difference between USB and ethernet slots or WLAN. She knows what a FireFox is and google and that she has access to the internet. During her last visit she saw the letters "Ubuntu" on my Notebook. She found the Ubuntu download site via google, downloaded the ISO-image and asked her neighbour to burn the image on CD, because she doesn't know what an ISO-image is. She inserted the CD in to the CD-ROM drive and shortly after then wrote me an email, that she has got Linux installed.

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Tiny Core should also finish up with a professional wiki, where the information is correct, up to date, easy to understand, and covers a broad range of subjects. It can't be done immediately, but it should be the long term aim. Why should we be happy with the Tiny Core web site being less professional than the web sites of other distros?
The problem is that compared to most of the "other distros" you'll probably have in mind there are only very few people pushing TCL forward. And they do an awesome job accomplishing this. Speaking for myself, I have more fun adding code to this project than adding documentation. And all I do on TCL, I do for fun only. The most interesting part of an open source community is that you can point out that something needs to be done better by doing it better and contribute your work.

The reason for your awesome job is, that you are a few people and do have fun. That is the reaseon why I noticed Tiny Core Linux this week. I needed a user friendly lean distribution. Other distributions seemed to complicated to me, because of so many discussions and forks, and forks and forks. Maybe that I'm not in your target audience but I'm not the last one. Ther will be more people interested in Tiny Core Linux without any Linux knowledge.

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So my biggest wish is: Keep Tiny Core Linux so lean and clear. Don't get so bloated like other "small" Linuxes.

My seond wish:
Imagine that you are a new user which only has experience with an iPhone or Android Tablet PC. The worst failure of common Linux distributions is that new users are confrontated with a to huge list of programs doing the same thing. A new user wants a basic working system: one browser, one editor (not vi and vi must keep hidden from GUI), on CD burning program, one Word application, one media player, one PDF reader, one image processor. After the installation of Tiny Core Linux, should start an assistent be started which asks the user if he now wants to skip the installation of the "office- and internet-suite" and do it self. If the user chose not to skip, then Tiny Core Linux may asume that the user is unexperienced and after the installation of the "office- and internet-suite" this forum and the wiki should be opened in the installed browser. That's it. No more information. If the user wants to customize his Tiny Core he knows the two websites to start his research.

My third wish:
On the Tiny Core Linux download site should be a Link to websites where the user can download software to make a bootable USB-Stick from the Tiny Core Linux ISO-image. Because Netbooks and touch-pads don't have a CD-ROM drive and TCL is a good candidate to install on everything which has a CPU.

The last suggestion:
Imagine TCL as the primary OS and not the VM-guest inside Windows. Today the default installation on clean PCs and Notebooks is Freedos and in Asia it is Linpus. In my opinion Tiny Core has a good chance to replace these. This is my favoured szenario: A customer buys a notebook with Tiny Core Linux pre-installed. The BIOS has CD-ROM boot disabled by default. The user opens the default browser and downloads some other OS which he adds to the Tiny Core Linux - boot menu. Another day he goes to the store and buys an installation DVD. He insterts it in the DVD drive, Tiny Core Linux has a boot menu entry to boot from DVD. After the user chose DVD he has 10 seconds to press a key (like F2) to boot directly from DVD. Otherwise the DVD is booted inside a VM under Tiny Core Linux and automatically an exensible VM-image file for the OS installation created.



Offline hiro

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2011, 05:33:58 PM »
and TCL is a good candidate to install on everything which has a CPU.
Well, on every x86 at least...

Offline TheNewbie

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2011, 09:52:18 PM »
Imagine TCL as the primary OS and not the VM-guest inside Windows. Today the default installation on clean PCs and Notebooks is Freedos and in Asia it is Linpus. In my opinion Tiny Core has a good chance to replace these. This is my favoured szenario: A customer buys a notebook with Tiny Core Linux pre-installed. The BIOS has CD-ROM boot disabled by default. The user opens the default browser and downloads some other OS which he adds to the Tiny Core Linux - boot menu. Another day he goes to the store and buys an installation DVD. He insterts it in the DVD drive, Tiny Core Linux has a boot menu entry to boot from DVD. After the user chose DVD he has 10 seconds to press a key (like F2) to boot directly from DVD. Otherwise the DVD is booted inside a VM under Tiny Core Linux and automatically an exensible VM-image file for the OS installation created.

TCL is not, and most likely never will be, an OEM OS. It will also probably never be sold on DVDs. Both suggest commercial involvement and/or a large community. Furthermore, TCL can easily be installed as the primary OS, as well as via a bootable USB/DVD(see wiki). Lastly, I've never heard of Linpus (though a quick Google'ing confirms its existence), and not once have I seen FreeDOS bundled with a PC of any kind.

That section of your post seemed sadly misguided.

Offline hiro

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2011, 04:31:42 AM »
Two of my laptops had freedos preinstalled.
And yeah, I think optical disks should die. I don't use them.

Offline TheNewbie

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2011, 06:03:10 PM »
Two of my laptops had freedos preinstalled.
And yeah, I think optical disks should die. I don't use them.

Seriously? What's your country of residence?

If it weren't for the fact that it's pretty impossible to buy data in the store (i.e. movies, OSs, software, games) on a different medium than optical disks, then I would stop using them. (In fact, I haven't bought any in a while now...)

Offline tinypoodle

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2011, 08:21:01 PM »
Not uncommon at all that major manufacturers would ship budget line PC's with FreeDOS preinstalled, though yes, that may only have been the case in geographically limited markets, IIRC Asia and USA.
"Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster." Niklaus Wirth - A Plea for Lean Software (1995)

Offline hiro

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2011, 04:13:53 AM »
Germany. It was a small store though with a lot of refurbished stuff. Naturally they wouldn't care about messing around with licenses.

For a friend I also bought a tower from some medium sized online shop and it also had freedos installed.

Regarding optical discs:
I downloaded my windows (not even using it) legally. I don't know any other OS one might want to buy and for music and movies I have enough crazy friends collecting all they can grab ahold of. What they send me is often better than what any store would want to sell me on their top40 cds.

Vinyl is the only disc I still want to touch. Not because of "analog quality", but beatmatching is fun.

Offline vinnie

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Re: What's the future direction of TC?
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2011, 04:55:57 AM »
I also stumbled by mistake into a notebook with freedos and had the hardware characteristics of all respect!
I also hope that the CD will soon disappear