Post Install persistent setup

[todiswed01]

Did you inheirt this system?

I believe the word is inherit. No I did not inherit this system. Would some consider your remark to be condescending? I wonder… nope, just humorous.

How did you possibly install it using grub?

Grub is only a bootloader. I downloaded the grub extension and then installed it to the MBR of hda. I then created and edited the menu.lst file as I done so many times on other distros.

Is this a hard drive or a flash type device? If flash you will need another boot option "waitusb=5"

Nope, not a flashdrive

You stated that grub is no problem for you.
Don't you know how to edit a grub boot enry so that you can add the boot options that I mentioned?
After them after "quiet". So simple.

Nope, I failed clairvoyance school as a child. Let see… Should I add your entries beneath existing entries, kind of like the memtest on larger distros? Do I copy existing entries and then append your entries to these copies. As I picture my other menu.lst experiences in my head, I see root, & kernel initrd and some options, none of which are reminiscent of tinycore's convoluted and confusing (instructions ?! ?) http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html.  As you can see, in actuality, it's not so simple and communication is the key.

[JoXo009]

My 5cents:

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I think what you, todiswed, tried to describe is just the feeling that 95% of newcomers have got.

You are right in every word. You bring it to the point.

Not being an expert and couriously visiting this tinycore page you can't fight the feeling these people don't want answer simple questions.

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In the meantime I think, that feeling is wrong. It's not they don't want - it's they can't.

It would happen to you too. When becoming an expert you change yourself, you gain expertise but loose your view for simple things.

When beeing a locksmith for example you may start explaining your great key systems but can't imagine anymore that your customer first needs to know that a house has got a door.

If your customer never heard of that funny thing called door, all your explanation is worthless to him.

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I'm convinced that's not possible to overcome this communication barrier by trying to do it better.

It's really a 'cant'. Being an expert you loose the ability to keep your explanation understandable for non experts. Doing it better from your point of view doesn't help at all.

What's needed is accepting the knowledge of being partially blind. The beginner is blind for expertise and the expert is blind for beginner problems, uses a vocabulary (e.g. 'boots into X') being esperanto for a beginner.

That taken in consideration there is the possibility for both parts to overcome the gap.

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An example for a practical solution to my opinion the the installation manual of tinycore:
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/install.html

Not that it would be easy to follow. It's still a pretty long way and most beginners will need 2-3 tries till they come through as any typo will ruin the process.

But at least the installation manual is a way a beginner can start successfully.

We would need more of such practical guides.

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And it's not to increase the amount of information. On the contrary the information has got ununderstandable as its too much of it.

What's needed is a hirarchy like an onion. An outer level explained with three sentences and to on.

That's my opinion at least.

[Juanito]

The preceding is useless since as I said time, and time again, I cannot access files in tinycore.

On the assumption that you can boot tinycore, could you explain more fully what you mean by "I cannot access files in tinycore"? Do you mean:

1. You don't know what command or application to use to access a file?
2. You do know what commands and/or applications to use to access a file, but you get an error message stating that you do not have permission to access a particular file?
3. Or something else? If so, please explain what.

The reason I say this is because if you can boot tinycore and you can click on the "Aterm" icon that looks like a monitor with ">_" on the screen and it opens a terminal window, then you can use "vi".

Also if you can boot tinycore and you have a working wired Internet connection, then you can use the "Apps" icon that looks like two cog wheels to download and install the "beaver" and "emelfm" applications - clicking on the relevant icons will then allow you to start these applications.

[lucky13]

Is there any way we can disable colors either in our own prefs or system-wide for those who abuse such features?

Seems to me that you need a trunkey system which Tiny is not.
Seems to me that you need a true "vendor" that can support you.

I think you meant “Turnkey Linux.” Nope, not for me, for it would not be enough of a challenge.

Never overestimate your own readiness for a challenge.

Neither grub nor Lilo are considered to be vendors, yet I've not had issue with...grub.

I believe Robert was referring to those distros which offer support in exchange for payment. For those who need much hand-holding, for those who have less interest in learning to manage things themselves than to hire someone more competent to do it for them.

I refuse to believe that your opinion represents all of those associated with the inception of “Tinycore Linux.” Therefore, since I can also see the potential of Tinycore, I shall not be moving on. I’ve stated that I am not a Linux Guru, nor a windows IT. However, tinycore is well within my ability as evidenced by the examples of what I’ve accomplished in Linux.

Let me address this sentence by sentence. Maybe you'll appreciate it that way since you seem to be so pedantic with your replies. First, Robert has been involved "since the inception of TinyCore Linux" because he is TinyCore's lead developer. He was also the lead developer of Damn Small Linux. Accordingly, you're probably stunned that his opinions carry a lot of weight around here. Much more than yours do. And his opinions end up being implemented in TC's base and everything else. So you might want to get used to that.

Second, those of us who were or have been involved with "Core" since its inception are more than willing to help you learn it. But are you even a good student? Or are you going to be the nasty little doggy who's only going to keep biting the hand that feeds it? Your decision to move on or not isn't going to matter if you continue with this attitude that you know so much better than developers and the community. The second part is something to which you might aspire and participate. Without the community, development, documentation, etc., simply doesn't occur.

Finally, I'm not nearly as confident in your abilities (yet) as you seem to be even if I overlook your forgotten password and choosing a second account rather than resetting your password via the link for those who've forgotten passwords.

...(edit) snipping lecture about learning theory...

The greatest challenge for anyone moving from a larger Linux distribution (Ubuntu, Suse or PCLinuxOS 2009) to Tinycore will be http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html. What is my proof that it is invalid? Compare the install dcumentation: http://www.tinycorelinux.com/install.html to the post install documentation found at: http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html. Note the huge difference.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion about barriers of adoption. I would submit that the larger barrier to new users is actually comprehending the concepts of TinyCore and that whatever new users may have learned while running through a stack of CDs that self-install and don't require you to actually understand very much (if anything at all) isn't necessarily applicable to TC's concepts. TC has a novel paradigm, as explained in at least one of the documents you keep complaining about. Resisting TC's paradigms makes using it a lot more difficult.

Let's ban him before more members of the public read this, or let's edit his post, then ban him. We post after his post & he'll never be able to say anything else.

Hahaha. It's more likely to happen to you if you keep going down this road with your condescending attitude towards developers and your insistence that your abilities are up to the task but you're unwilling and too impatient to learn.

I appreciate the TinyCore's paradigms might be frustrating if you're only familiar with conventional read-write systems whether other distros or Windows or Mac or whatever. Don't take your frustrations out on others who are trying to help. Sometimes it's easier to do what the documentation says and learn by doing. One of the things about TC that might benefit you in a "trial by fire" learning experience is that you can revert to the "pristine" state of your initial install without reinstalling.

I read a few of the posts in this thread and it seems that you expect TC to be as "easy" as other distros (even comparing it to the "top 8 at distrowatch"). Since day one, "Core" has never claimed to be "easy" or approachable for noobs; that said, I think it might be easier to teach a noob how to use it if the noob isn't already headstrong that it needs to work like other distros. It's especially difficult if you only want to approach it as any other distro. Slow down, read the documentation, install it on USB or just run from the CD until you feel comfortable with its concept. Be patient and respectful and you'll get it in return. Keep dissing and you're going to have a rockier time with the community than you're having with TC.

[alu]

i add my 2 cents too: i think that when you are relatively fresh to linux, you realize that there is a knowledge-base that is common to the use of any linux distro, as f.ex. using the command line, learning some of the basic unix functions at the command line (f.ex. cp, mkdir, rm, etc.), installing grub in the mbr, or syslinux a flash drive, or creating a menu.list file that suits your need etc. etc. For me, the objections that you make, todiswed01, have a lot to do with basic linux steps which require a knowledge-base that you only partially have. Your objections have then nothing to do with the TC concept and its supposed lake of informations. TC assumes that everyone has a sufficient amount of knowledge-base in linux in order to use the simple minimalistic but expandable system it is, nothing more, but nothing less too. From this point of view, each OS requires a knowledge-base for which there is a lot of documentations already existing in the internet which everyone who wants to use a system is supposed to read.

Now speaking about the TC concept: first things first, don't expect that you "install" TC on your hard disk, because TC does not do that. TC loads into RAM (you can read on the internet as well as in this web site the several advantages of it over a traditional installation). Your hard disk is then only a place where you can save the specific extensions which the TC team and afficionados provide, as well as your own data. If you understand that, you understand also why there is no step-by-step installation how to, since TC does not install on your hard disk. This also the reason why boot codes are important because they give you the possibility to drive what TC loads in memory, i.e. only the basic system, or the basic system with personalized parameters (like your timezone, your keymap etc.), or the basic systems + personalized parameters + some applications which have been called "extensions" as they extend the basic system. TC's goal is not to offer a complete workable environment at boot (as in other distro, even minimalisitc ones such as puppy); it delivers a kernel with some basic applications and daemons (available in the default menu and in the cpanel) that you can expand on your own regarding your needs with extensions.

An extensions is an application (like openoffice, abiword, xmms, etc.), and there is a lot of them already provided by the TC team and others. You can get extensions by downloading them with appbrowser to your hard disk (which supposes that you have an internet connection since appbrowser loads extensions which are on a server in the internet). If you want to load some of them when you are booting TC, you need to create a /tce directory on your hard disk, and you have to place the extensions that you want to be loaded at boot (i.e. when the TC basic system loads into RAM) into this directory. Depending on where you create your directory, you need or do not need to indicate the path at boot with a boot code (typically: tce=yourhardisk/agivendirectory/yourtcedirectory); if /tce is at the root of your hard drive, you don't need to use a boot code, TC will automatically find the /tce directory and load the extensions it contains.

With this, you have the very basic concept of TC, and you will find the needed informations to go further in the web site of TC. You will probably do some trials and get errors that you can't manage by yourself, and this is why the (very responsive) forum is there with users that can point you into the right direction.

[JoXo009]

Naturally you can put it your way.

And obviously it's important to mention the who's who.

Robert Shingledecker, the creator of Tinycorelinux is doing a great job. And it is admirable how steady and calm he is able to respond to that 'nasty little doggy', who doesn't behave polite and respectful at all.

Maybe you even are right when limiting Tinycorelinux to an exclusive errorfree circle which never happens to forget that they can reset their password instead of creating a new account.

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But maybe the unspoken dream of the top developers is to open the great advantages of Tinycorelinunx to a far broader audience, possibly Tinycorelinunx being a kind of slashdotter one day.

I think it's possible. That's why I'm here.

And to make such dreams come true, such (nasty) postings might be very helpful, as they show how a lot (my guess 95%) of non-expert tinycore visitors really think.

Most visitors are far too polite. They think s***, dissapear and Tinycorelinux never gets to know what improvement is needed.

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To requote the words often used by tinycorelinunx experts, when they want to argue newcomers into a 'quick' learning process of several hundred hours, 'it's not that difficult'.

No, it's really not that diffcult for experts to take such nasty postings as example what to do better.

And doing so, maybe Tinycorelinunx one day really becomes kind of a slashdotter.

[Juanito]

In order to be able to help, what's the first thing you need to know?

[lucky13]

Re forgotten password, there's a link right below submit which asks, "Forgot your password?" I know because it had been about a year since I last posted here and I'd forgotten mine. Within a few minutes I had an e-mail with a link to reset my password. It's not about error-free circles. It's about being attentive about such matters rather than being trigger-happy and so emotive about things that one is compelled to get a new account just to continue posting in multiple colors, font sizes, etc. If one's not attentive about using one's account, it might be a reasonable assumption one is also inattentive when it comes to other documents.

As far as broadening the appeal, I don't think that's objectionable or undesirable. I can't speak for anyone else. As an ex-team member, though, I always operated on the assumption that this wouldn't be the perfect solution for everyone because I don't think there's a perfect solution for everyone. Different strokes, different folks.

I'm also not opposed to making things easier for others to understand. One of my tasks when I joined the team was to help put together documentation. Alas, things in my life interfered with all volunteer tasks and I dropped from the team. Work and family had to come first. Now that I have a bit more breathing room, hopefully I'll be able to make more time to add to and expand upon the documentation base for TinyCore.

What I wrote earlier about community involvement is paramount whether I'm involved or not. Some things take a back seat to others when there's only so much community involved. While some distros are able to piggyback on efforts of others and have more resources to dedicate to documenting the few changes they've made, TinyCore started with a handful of developers and pretty much a clean slate. There were a few principles already used elsewhere. But the fact is, there are compromises when few people are involved -- what gets more focus, making things work right or creating simple how-to guides so people can use what may not even be implemented yet?

Also as I wrote earlier, I can understand the frustrations of users who want it to work as simply as any other distro. As I intimated, I think it's easier to start with an inexperienced user -- a clean slate -- without the knowledge/experience of other ways of doing things and the expectations that come with that. Once you comprehend the underlying concepts, the Linux part of it falls into place. But if you refuse to comprehend the differences, you're going to fight an uphill battle.

Unfortunately, that uphill battle often turns into these kinds of exchanges. It shouldn't. But it will continue to. That's because some people project their own expectations on others -- your distro isn't as "pretty" as another, it's not as easy to use, it requires more effort to both understand and use, it's not as well-documented, and so on. And maybe they're fair in thinking the same the other way around that developers make too many assumptions. What's the middle ground? It sure as hell isn't petulant, multi-colored posts with big freaking letters suggesting developers be banned from posting in their own forums.

Back to the subject at hand, the complaintant hasn't so much as detailed his problems as he has his outrage. We can only help someone so much under those circumstances.

[JoXo009]

Back to the subject at hand, the complaintant hasn't so much as detailed his problems as he has his outrage. We can only help someone so much under those circumstances.

It's your decision. What you can and what you can't.

Naturally you can limit yourself to your own species of visitors, tamed and trying to follow your cryptic commands.

Or you can try to approach the other 95% too. Then it's first you who'll have to learn, learn to be far more precise, understandable and less diffuse in your documentation - not mixing up different logical levels - and explaining with convincing examples instead of dumping inscrutable text.

If you think such improvement would be impossible, have a look on the installation example.
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/install.html
There you see - it's possible.

[Juanito]

Again, what is the first problem you'd like some help with?

[roberts]

You know I am getting tired of all the whining that I have to put up with.

True, developers, don't make the best documentation.

I don't ask for monetary donations, I don't even have google ads here. All that I have ever asked is for help by contributing back to the community. Sharing knowledge.

Some have made wiki pages and for that I am thankful. Many have contributed extensions and without such we would not survive. But much more could be done.

For example, surely someone, could make short videos of how to setup and use Tiny Core.
The "record my desktop" type extensions are in the repository. Seems in this age of youtube a short video would be very helpul and much easier than being a wordsmith.

Instead of whinnig about things. How about giving something back, not to me personally, but to the project? Surely we have some that have an interest in such areas.

[combo3]

Suggestion:

How about creating a separate forum section devoted just to general Linux problems, along with a sticky post explaining how to ask questions in a way most likely to get a satisfactory answer, such as:

1) State what you wish to achieve
2) State what you've done that hasn't worked
3) Post the relevant error messages
4) Post follow-ups when your problem is solved and how you solved it as a courtesy to those who've helped you and others having the same problem.


References:

http://www.gerv.net/hacking/how-to-ask-good-questions/
http://www.wikihow.com/Ask-a-Question-Intelligently
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

This way frequently asked Linux questions are contained to one section and become a repository of knowledge for future members.

It also highlights common problems where a wiki entry might be useful.

[lucky13]

....For example, surely someone, could make short videos of how to setup and use Tiny Core.
The "record my desktop" type extensions are in the repository. Seems in this age of youtube a short video would be very helpul and much easier than being a wordsmith.

On my to-do list, but the next two weeks (at least) I have my hands full. I was going to start on it before I left for Houston but had too much to do before taking time off from work. I'll see what I can do as I have time here.

[lucky13]

Suggestion:

How about creating a separate forum section devoted just to general Linux problems...

Or just put a "links" page somewhere to sources of such information if it's general info and not TC-specific. I'm not against making things easier, but there's already a wealth of Linux how-to and man page types of information already on the Internet. At some point people should take it upon themselves to use it rather than flood forums with repetitive requests for rudimentary info.

[alu]

there are already videos about tc on google video