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Offline interestedjournalist

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Interested journalist with a few questions
« on: January 21, 2016, 11:38:05 AM »
Hi there,

I'm a freelance technical journalist writing a review/overview/brief history of Tiny Core Linux for an online news site. I have a few questions for  the developers/users, if you'd be willing to bear with me:

1. Who are the ideal users of Tiny Core Linux? Developers using the system as a base and "remixing" it for other purposes? General-purpose computing users? Those looking for a "dumb" cloud terminal?

2. I know the system is optimized to be run "live" in RAM but an installation image is also provided. The official e-book seems to discourage installation. But for those who want persistence of data/installed applications, wouldn't installation be ideal? It seems a little... convoluted to try to maintain persistence over "live" sessions if installing Tiny Core would simplify this.

3. How are security updates done? How frequently does the distribution put them out?

4. Roughly how strong/involved would you say the development community is? Do one or more people end up doing the "core" (no pun intended) of the work with a few others contributing as much as they can with the time they have? Are there a number of people who do "one-off" contributions and are not heard from again?

5. What were the main goals and achievements of the 7.0 distribution over the last version of the 6.x series? I see that there is, for example, a newer version of busybox, an updated glibc and a new kernel, but what would you say are the major changes?

6. Once 7.0 comes out, what are the team's goals for the project going forward?

7. Is this forum the best place to participate in Tiny Core's development? Or is there a collaborative source code repository on a site such as GitHub to work with?

8. What type of help does the project most need?


Thanks so much for your patience! Tiny Core Linux is a fascinating Linux distribution.

Take care,
Adam

Offline Misalf

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2016, 01:44:17 PM »
I'm not too sure what kind of Tiny Core (or Linux) user I am. After getting into Linux just a few years ago, I quickly went away from bloated distros, for different reasons (like hardware, bandwidth, efficiency), in favor of the small ones (Puppy, Slitaz, DSL, ..., TC). I use it for general-purpose computing as well as for learning about Linux in the first place. I always wanted to know what the OS I have installed does, and how to change that. This is actually the main reason for me to use Windows privately the less as I can, since it's UI got less and less intuitive regarding what I used to (this is "there" and this is "there"; nope not anymore). Well, I can do that with pretty much any Linux distro but why shrink it down if I can just add what I need...

Installation would probably be ideal, for a lot of users. However, the design makes it not only possible but efficient to use it in a live session. As I get it, this is/was one of it's main goals. No one is limited to this way though. I guess the wiki evolves much slower than Tiny Core itself and what users (who 'could' edit the wiki accordingly if enough diligence available) do with Tiny Core.

OpenSSL's heartbleed or Bash's shellshock got fixed quite quickly in matter of one or two days or so. Apart from that, I see some packages from Debian stable to be older than several Tiny Core extensions. If users mention security issues and ask for an update of a certain software, I'd claim the admins (if not the extension maintainer) responds rather quickly with an update.

The Core is maintained by the Admins / Devs, but even I have provided patches after they got confirmed to be useful. Also, the Admins do not hesitate to check if a provided patch could lead to improvement like those patches from rather new forum users like me or aswjh, dentonlt, yiyus and nitram in TC6.x. It's a community driven project and the community gets heard if it speaks.

I hope to see performance improvements in graphics once Xorg's Intel/DRM issue gets resolved. q: Other than that, I don't have new hardware to be able to benefit from any compatibility improvements I'm afraid, which I think is probably the main reason to not stick with one old version of a certain software. Newer software versions often get slower rather than faster - or software gets slower faster that hardware. (:

I personally think this forum is the best place to participate in Tiny Core's development. Yes. Otherwise I wouldn't see it.

This project would benefit from any reports about what users do with TC, to improve it's potential, if needed/useful.

Tiny Core Linux is a Tool Kit. (;

Cheers.
Download a copy and keep it handy: Core book ;)

Offline curaga

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2016, 02:09:27 PM »
1. Who are the ideal users of Tiny Core Linux? Developers using the system as a base and "remixing" it for other purposes? General-purpose computing users? Those looking for a "dumb" cloud terminal?

We seem to have a few distinct groups, with the common thread being that they're somewhat experienced Linux users.
- those running old or limited hardware
- those needing appliances/VMs for specific purposes
- those who want to tinker and customize
- and some who are just sick of the software bloat trends

I guess I belong to all four. I can spin a new single-purpose VM in minutes, it'll boot fast and take mere tens of megabytes. It's very useful. When running on old laptops, I go for TC first, and then I run it on some current/powerful hw just because I prefer it over the bigger distros.

Core is not really useful for a newbie wanting a normal desktop experience, like Ubuntu or Mint.

Quote
2. I know the system is optimized to be run "live" in RAM but an installation image is also provided. The official e-book seems to discourage installation. But for those who want persistence of data/installed applications, wouldn't installation be ideal? It seems a little... convoluted to try to maintain persistence over "live" sessions if installing Tiny Core would simplify this.

It's a difference in terminology, rather than requiring a live cd/usb every time. If you boot CorePlus, you can start the installer, click a few times, and have a Core install on your HD in under a minute. (Another benefit! Last I installed Ubuntu, it took over 10min, and last I installed Windows, it took 1.5h)

It's one of the strong points of Core than we do not do the traditional "scatter" install, where you have a few thousand files scattered all over the disk. Instead, everything is in a few compressed files, making integrity checks rather easy, and avoiding system rot. Robert coined the term "frugal install" for this.

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3. How are security updates done? How frequently does the distribution put them out?

As a small distro comprised of volunteers, we have no special procedures for security. Updates to packages happen when the maintainer sends one in, which is why we don't recommend running TC on internet-facing servers.

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4. Roughly how strong/involved would you say the development community is? Do one or more people end up doing the "core" (no pun intended) of the work with a few others contributing as much as they can with the time they have? Are there a number of people who do "one-off" contributions and are not heard from again?

We have a good set of regulars contributing, but it's been on a slow waning trend for a few years now. We do get drive-by contributions too, but usually if someone has found Core useful, they will use it again in the future when a similar situation arises.

Some base devs have retired, and some new ones have come up, but it's clear the community is not at its peak. We're not really doing things any different than we were in the 2.x/3.x timeframe, so perhaps it's just natural decrease in the need for something like this.

This is a bit different on the ARM/rpi platform. There the userbase consists of more inexperienced people, and so bmarkus does comparatively more of the work. With the pi being so slow, it's also cumbersome to compile on it, putting further barriers on contributing there.

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5. What were the main goals and achievements of the 7.0 distribution over the last version of the 6.x series? I see that there is, for example, a newer version of busybox, an updated glibc and a new kernel, but what would you say are the major changes?

We have a part embedded target, and so we try to keep the kernel unchanged across a major release. This makes it a lot easier for some users who need custom kernel modules. This then leads to a new major release about yearly, updating the kernel and toolchain to more recent versions, so that more recent hw can be supported. 7.0 was like that, just version updates, no logic changes or new features.

In the time-based vs feature-based sense, major versions are closer to time-based, and minor versions happen whenever bugs are fixed. There hasn't been major feature development for a few major versions now, instead it's been more about polishing, speedups, and general fixes.

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6. Once 7.0 comes out, what are the team's goals for the project going forward?

Keep running things for those who need this kind of setup ;)

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7. Is this forum the best place to participate in Tiny Core's development? Or is there a collaborative source code repository on a site such as GitHub to work with?

Yes, this forum is the main place. We also have an irc channel on Freenode. The core scripts and programs are tracked in git, but not github or other such site right now, just a local cgit instance. We're open to putting everything on Github or another service, there's just been no pressing need to do so, or much clear advantages.

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8. What type of help does the project most need?

Evangelism, I'd say. And for ARM, extension maintainers.

Certainly we have the common need to all open source projects, documentation, which all forum users can contribute to (wiki logins are the same as the forum).
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline Lee

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2016, 03:17:28 PM »
Hi interestedjournalist,

Quote
I'm a freelance technical journalist writing a review/overview/brief history of Tiny Core Linux for an online news site. I have a few questions for  the developers/users, if you'd be willing to bear with me:

You want to actually -learn- about Tiny Core before writing a review?  Thank you!  It is so frustrating to read reviews written by someone who downloaded Tiny Core, "installed" it and wrote their review without even trying to get the point.

Quote
1. Who are the ideal users of Tiny Core Linux? ...

Well, with a few possible exceptions, every Tiny Core user is ideal.    :)    But seriously, each probably has his own reasons for choosing Tiny Core so each should speak for himself.

I am a geek an IT professional / programmer and hobbyist since about 1981.  I was looking for a small,  fast, easily comprehensible distro that let's me have everything -my- way.  I thought of remastering Tiny Core into my own "vanity" distro, but could never really come up with good reason to do so - It's fine just the way it is.
32 bit core4.7.7, Xprogs, Xorg-7.6, wbar, jwm  |  - Testing -
PPR, data persistence through filetool.sh          |  32 bit core 8.0 alpha 1
USB Flash drive, one partition, ext2, grub4dos  | Otherwise similar

Offline nitram

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2016, 04:49:49 PM »
Welcome interestedjournalist, i like these types of threads :)

Avid user, occasional contributor, Tiny Core and dCore.

1. Who are the ideal users of Tiny Core Linux?
Enthusiastic users that like to learn, tinker and fully customize a system starting from almost scratch. Appears excited new users that start customizing Tiny Core but don't take the time to read and learn don't stay long. Same with users that expect a similar but lean out-of-the box experience like Ubuntu or Mint without having to exert much effort.

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2. ...The official e-book seems to discourage installation...
IIRC the book indicates a 'frugal installation' is actually the most common for Tiny Core, just a different way to *install*. IMO much better and much more modular. Having used only Debian systems previously, those installs can turn into a real mess after a while when experimenting with the system, installing and removing software, etc. Really doesn't happen with a Tiny Core *install*.

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3. How are security updates done? How frequently does the distribution put them out?
As mentioned, Tiny Core updates are done on an as needed or as requested basis. Active and advanced users are able to update themselves and many community members assist with extension maintenance. If you have a chance to review dCore, which is a Tiny Core off-shoot, package and security updates are available directly from Debian and Ubuntu repositories. A dCore install can, therefore, be just as secure as any Debian installation. Arguably more secure as it runs leaner, few background processes and daemons, no pre-installed networking software, etc.

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4. Roughly how strong/involved would you say the development community is? Do one or more people end up doing the "core" (no pun intended) of the work with a few others contributing as much as they can with the time they have? Are there a number of people who do "one-off" contributions and are not heard from again?
The Tiny Core developers and many regular members are active and helpful, many log in daily to help out.

Quote
5. What were the main goals and achievements of the 7.0 distribution over the last version of the 6.x series? I see that there is, for example, a newer version of busybox, an updated glibc and a new kernel, but what would you say are the major changes?
The Tiny Core base appears stable with mostly just bug fixes and some performance tweaks. Development with piCore and dCore appears to be more active.

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6. Once 7.0 comes out, what are the team's goals for the project going forward?
Hopefully 'to infinity and beyond' - Buzz Lightyear

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7. Is this forum the best place to participate in Tiny Core's development?
Yes.

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8. What type of help does the project most need?
Everything - development ideas, patches, bug fixes, testing, submitting extensions, updating wiki, forum assistance...

Offline bmarkus

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2016, 03:36:24 AM »
Hi Adam

first of all welcome here  :)

I kindly advice to start using TC for few weeks or a month to get a handson experience before publishing any review. It is a unique and different system, it need some time to be familiar with it for IT professionals too. To see a picture or read how to make an apple pie is not same as to taste.

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Installation and persistence

There are no need for traditional installation. TC core, the minimal working system is loaded into RAM by bootloader. Once it started boot media can be unmounted and it doesn't require any mounted partition. Extensions (packages) are read-only compressed squash images added to file system at boot time dinamically. They are loop mounted in most cases but it is possible to copy all or selected extensions to RAM. Copying all you can release media. This solution is ideal for embedded applications specially on systems with SD cards or eMMC flash to avoid file system corruption when e.g. your wife just pulls out the plug from wall outlet of the media player client or internet radio. At next reboot you have a clean system, same as before.

Other benefit is that you can have multiple set of extensions and you can select which one to load. With this you can have multiple systems, one for development, one for production test, one for x86, another for x86_64, etc. On the same machine without interference between them, without causing critical demage during development or experimenting.

By default no data saved by the system itself. However, you can save configurable data to a single gzipped file, saved in a single directory with extensions and restored automatically at next boot. Different extension sets have their own saved data. You can configure home directory, opt and /tce dirs (used for extensions and data backup) on a hard disk partion or multiple partitions if you want. You have full control.

Personally I'm booting system from USB stick and keep multiple /tce directories on HDD. It gives me a speed and flexibility to work with different versions easily without always reinstalling system. And I have never missed traditional installation in past years.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 03:42:28 AM by bmarkus »
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Online Juanito

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2016, 05:34:14 AM »
Most of what I would have said has been said above, but just to add:

1. Who are the ideal users of Tiny Core Linux? Developers using the system as a base and "remixing" it for other purposes? General-purpose computing users? Those looking for a "dumb" cloud terminal?

I'd say the ideal user could be anybody from a linux newcomer with an old hand-me-down machine all the way up to a developer with serious hardware.

Tinycorelinux is a perfect tool for a casual user to resurrect otherwise junk hardware for use as a web browser/email client/music player. It is also very easy to develop on due to the tiny base and granular extension system.

The adaptability of Tinycorelinux is perhaps best demonstrated by the fact that it can run a small, basic Fltk GUI using a few extensions all the way up to a recent gnome desktop using hundreds of extensions.

Offline Jason W

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 10:09:00 AM »
Hi Adam.

As for the ideal audience for Tinycore, it is actually the only system I will set up for a non technical user where I will need to support the installation as most any mistake is solved with a reboot, and at worst if the hard drive crashes or the frugal installation is deleted, having to reinstall is a matter of replacing the kernel file, core.gz image, and extension directory which holds all the programs and saved settings. 

And I would like to say a little more about what is called dCore.  It is an offering whose base system is Debian library compatible and pulls it's packages directly from a Debian repository as well as from a set of premade ones.  Currently there are x86 dCore offerings for Debian Wheezy and Jessie, as well as several Ubuntu releases, and there is a Wheezy compatible version for armv7.   dCore is built on the same Tinycore principles - small base system, optional persistence, frugal install, backup/restore, read only mountable extensions, pristine boot - and the differences in package sources are mostly transparent to the user.  In short, it is just another way to use Tinycore.  And development is open to anyone who wants to contribute.


Offline interestedjournalist

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 03:38:47 PM »
Thank you all so much for your great answers!

I had two more questions:

1. Is dCore an official part of the Tiny Core project?

2. Are the boot codes one can use in the command line distinct tools made specifically for Tiny Core, or are they kernel boot parameters as used in other distributions? If the former, what are some of the more useful tools for new users?

Thanks!
Adam

Offline Misalf

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2016, 04:00:19 PM »
2.
http://distro.ibiblio.org/tinycorelinux/faq.html#bootcodes
All of these, except for  vga=  AFAICT, are Tiny Core specific, used either for configuration (like specifying a TCE directory, persistence, localization and other system relevant settings etc.) or troubleshooting (pause, base, norestore). Most of which are handled in  /etc/init.d/tc-config .
Download a copy and keep it handy: Core book ;)

Offline sm8ps

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2016, 04:08:36 PM »
Hi Adam and everybody interested in PR for *Core!

Just to signal that I wrote an article about dCore to be published soon (Feb. 6th) in freiesmagazin.de (in German). I shall officially announce it in the forum once it has appeared but I wanted to offer my assistance here (collaboration or proof-reading, whichever suits).

Cheers!
sm

Offline Rich

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2016, 04:42:33 PM »
Hi interestedjournalist
Quote
2. Are the boot codes one can use in the command line distinct tools made specifically for Tiny Core, or are they kernel boot parameters as used in other distributions? ...
Both.

Offline Jason W

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2016, 04:51:29 PM »
Hi Adam.

Yes, dCore is an official part of the Tinycore project.

Offline patrikg

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2016, 05:16:28 PM »
Great Linux dist for raspberry pi, because of not tearing down the sd card.
Just doing all stuff in ram.
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=88403

Offline ttz

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Re: Interested journalist with a few questions
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2016, 07:17:04 PM »
Hello Adam,

From: http://tinycorelinux.net/intro.html
"Not for everyone. Tiny Core is fast, powerful, and flexible. You can use Tiny Core without much technical knowledge, but, like any strong tool, Tiny Core becomes really useful if you know how to use it. Great starter skills could include command line usage, simple shell scripting, and Linux file and permission management, and some reasonably fast typing skills."

I say that is accurrate. I am not strong technically, but have used TC for about a year and have manged to get along (With help on the forum!).

From:
http://tinycorelinux.net/concepts.html
"Bottom Matter
If you have made it this far, congratulations! You're ready to get Tiny Core and get started. Browse the wiki, the forums, the download pages, and join the community conversation."

That pretty much says it for me. All I can do now is quote from others that have replied:

Juanito wrote: I'd say the ideal user could be anybody from a linux newcomer with an old hand-me-down machine all the way up to a developer with serious hardware.

nitram wrote: Enthusiastic users that like to learn, tinker and fully customize a system starting from almost scratch.

I think that is my favorite; that describes me.

bmarkus wrote:
I kindly advice to start using TC for few weeks or a month to get a handson experience before publishing any review.

Hope you find TC a good place to be - I have.

ttz
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 07:22:03 PM by ttz »