Pristine or Scatter virtually?

[JoXo009]

Working on a ready made virtual install I think about using the home=hdxxx boot option within grub menu.lst.

Using this option results into a partial non pristine status, data in home directory, that is predominantly personal application data will be treated in the traditional way, which - in the long run - may result in a scattered status of these data.

Whereas not using the 'home=hdxxx' boot code means each turnoff these data have to be merged into the mydata.tgz backup file and each boot they need to be restored from there.

The advantage of this pristine data status is combined with the disadvantage of waiting for finishing backup each poweroff and the risk of loosing data if backup is off for any reason.

Installing TC on a real machine, that disadvantage seems small compared to the advantage of keeping the machine clean. Thus this case the traditional (=scattering) modus isn't advisable even if limited on the home directory.

But what's about an installation on a virtual machine?

Installations on virtual machines in reality only last till next major TC version, as it's far easier to do a new install from scratch than to fiddle through all the needed updating steps necessary when changing to a new major TC version.

You just use the shared folders feature of your virtual machine, copy the data of your home directory to your host machine, kill the old virtual machine, create a new one based on the new TC version, fetch your home directory data back from your host machine and are done resulting in a new and at that moment fully pristine virtual machine.

So I ask myself, what is really better when using a virtual machine
1. avoiding home bootcode with the need to backup home data each poweroff
2. or using 'home=hdxxx' partially scattering data for a time relatively short.

Would like to hear the opinion of this forum - what do you use?

Is partially going traditionally with bootcode 'home=hdxxx' really a disadvantage when after about 1-2 months the whole stuff needs to be recreated into pristine status anyway?

[Guy]

I run Tiny Core installed conventionally.

I use home=sdxy and opt=sdxy

I make extensions for anything with personal settings, such as printer setup.

I do not use backup.

I use the Ext3 filesystem, and a swap partition.

I have never had any problems with filesystem corruption.

It is very unlikely that the home and opt directories will become corrupted. If they ever did, backup could become corrupted in the same way. Backup does not provide any advantage in this respect.

If home or opt or backup ever did become corrupted, just delete home or opt or backup, and Tiny Core will boot the same as a new installation.

Be aware, FAT16 and FAT32 filesystems are more likely to become corrupted, as they do not preserve owner, group and permissions.

[JoXo009]

I was asked why tc advise against a traditional install in general, that is in case of extensions.

I think, it's the experience probably each PC user has done already - after using his PC for some month it becomes slower and slower and suddenly it starts creating strange errors.

This behavoir is usually caused by all these reads and restores which scatter data around the whole harddrive, what's prevented when unpacking fresh data each reboot as done by TC.

So in case of the extensions the pristine TC way seems far better than the traditional one.

But in case of the home dir data I cant see any real advantage in avoiding the 'home=hdxxx'-bootcode when using a virtual machine which is rebuild from scratch every few month.

On the contrary in that case I only see disadvantages. For example I already lost data several times when stuck and needed to plug off (close in machine menu).

[roberts]

Backup requires file management, i.e., do you know what has accumulated in your home dir. Do you factor out the static to become personal extensions?
Backup provides Core's nomadic capability.
Baclup makes home and opt faster as they are in ram.
Backup makes for less writes on flash.

But as with most everything with Core, it is up to you.
We don't make decisions for you.

Tiny Core the tinker toys of Linux.
Tiny Core, like Burger King, have it your way.

[tclfan]

IMHO backup way is much superior in general. Primarily, you have a complete control when you need or want to backup and therefore change anything in the environment.  In most cases it is perhaps just browsing Internet. Nothing should change and the initial pristine state should be secured by not backing up when shutting down.  This way you know that nothing corrupted or changed your system.
You should need to backup primarily to change configurations or preferences only. And even then you boot, change configuration and shut down backing up, so you can reboot with the new pristine state.
Occasionally there could be files created by applications such as Office that you want to save... I would save them on usb media and anot include them in backup.

[tclfan]

In the above I forgot to mention virtual install... In my opinion, this applies also to virtual. I want my virtual machines as solid as the real machine.
Under XP my virtual machines (VMware/VMPlayer) are made as solid, optimized and partitioned and have Windows Disk Protection of the MS Shared Computer Toolkit. This is to keep the virtual machines pristine and uncorrupted. No changes will be allowed without deliberate implementation of such change.

[JoXo009]

Backup provides Core's nomadic capability.
Backup makes home and opt faster as they are in ram.
Backup makes for less writes on flash.

I know - and that's great.

But I was asking for the home dir on a virtual machine only, not on a real one.

I think,
a virtual machine might need no nomadic capability
a virtual machine usually might live in a non flash environment.

So for the usual virtual machine described above there seems to be no scatter problematic but only slower processing of home dir in RAM when using bootcode 'home=hdxx', if I've got it right.

Thus everybody will have to decide for himself what's more important to him:
1. faster home dir with the disadvantage that he needs to create personal extensions
2. or faster boot time with bootcode 'home=hdxx '.


@tclfan: As mentioned we speak about a virtual machine, not a real one. And on a virtual machine you get security by setting snapshots.

This even works if you don't have the time to do, as you suggest, a complete control of all these (possibly thousands of) files and folders with your personal data.

To my knowledge even best backup policy is not superior but worse than going back to last snapshot, really deleting everything what could have changed. Best backup couldn't prevent highjacking an extension file for example (fortunately no virus has tried until now.)

But even this question, if you prefer to use snapshot or backup policy to create security might be a question of your personal flavour.

Would be interested how other people handle that question on their virtual machines.

[tclfan]

@tclfan: As mentioned we speak about a virtual machine, not a real one. And on a virtual machine you get security by setting snapshots.
This even works if you don't have the time to do, as you suggest, a complete control of all these (possibly thousands of) files and folders with your personal data.

It is a matter of personal preference and conviction to the way you tried out thoroughly and found successful for your objective.
Snapshots are available only for VMWare Workstation, not for VM Player. Workstation is not free. Snapshots are great and I did use them in the past however the downside for preservation of the pristine state they have a downside: You need to know that your system got corrupted and then you revert to the previous snapshot. With TCL pristine state or Windows Disk Protection of SCT you do not need to ponder whether your system got corrupted...You do know this by default, because your system boots each time in the original pristine state!  This a huge advantage.
This is like an appliance e.g. TV - you turn it on and it works each time the same.
Snapshots have advantage for development: You develop or install various software of components, change the system at will, test it and ones done, revert to the previous snapshot, the original state.
Different purpose in my opinion.
My

[^thehatsrule^: fixed quote]

[JoXo009]

Snapshots are available only for VMWare Workstation, not for VM Player. Workstation is not free. Snapshots are great and I did use them in the past  ...

Fortunately there is Virtual Box.

Virtual Box has got snapshots and is free - Link

The Sun version of Virtual Box is free for personal, even commercial use. And there is even an open source version of Virtual Box.

And there are Guest Additions making life comfortable - seamless mouse, folder sharing and more goodies.

Kingdomecome kindly created an extension out of the open source version of it - Link

You should give it a try.

Creating a new Virtual Box for any major TC version practically results in a system pristine by default too, at least pristine every few months as explained above.

[tclfan]

Yes! It is also Virtual Box...
I like it too, although performance is way behind on file transfers...
However the purpose of snapshots is the same, as I described above.
I am using VMs for virtualization of my normal usage of computer environment as appliance, so preserving pristine state is important to me...

[JoXo009]

... Virtual Box... performance is way behind on file transfers...

  your information is up to date???
- it's not anymore the 1.5 version, which already in 2007 came near to VM - Link

It's the amazing fast version 3.1 of 2009 now!

To my knowledge Virtual Box is in almost any aspect better now than the free part of vm.

But I don't ask which virtual software is better, I ask how do members of this forum use their virtual machine - with or without bootcode 'home=hdxx'?

[JoXo009]

Above postings make me think, it's mixed.

Some use their virtual machine with bootcode 'home=hdxx" and some don't.

The decision seems to follow personal flavour in using backup/snapshot and the wish either to get faster processing or faster booting.

And in contrast to a real machine in case of a virtual machine there doesn't seem to exist a big danger of ending up with a scattered install, as the virtual machine will be recreated from scratch with every new major TC version.


So I come to the conclusion, that I should offer my ready made Virtual Machine Image with bootcode 'home=hda1' as default.

This would work without problems. A newcomer could download and set up a new virtual TC machine within 30 minutes. No error-prone explanation of backup would be needed for him. The small loss of RAM speed would be no big deal. Maybe the faster boot would even more than make up for.

About 50% would prefer this setting anyway and the other can change the menu.lst entry easily if they want to.

------- edited

I think, this way
the advantage of pristine tcz applications could be demonstrated to the newcomer by offering a ready made virtual machine and excluding the small part of pristine backup for the beginning

... and mayby this way much newcomers can be convinced to learn and try how to handle the backup part on a real machine in a pristine way too.