TC 8 already :)

[Rich]

Hi nitram

  Aterm*fading: 100
    - Poor default interface, opening side by side terminals should not render unfocused terminal virtually unreadable.
    - This made first learning TC much more difficult, took a while to figure out which option was the culprit.

Changing the fading is not necessary. The culprit is the transparency setting. One of its side affects is a washed out
background in a terminal which reduces the contrast with the white text. Open a terminal with some text. Change the
transparency setting in .Xdefaults to false and save the file. Open a second terminal with some text. The second terminal
has a true black background unlike the first terminal. Move the focus back and forth between the two terminals. I think
you'll find the second terminal quite readable even when it does not have focus.

[hiro]

it doesn't have to be software agnostic, it is there to filter away the most typical big offenders that fill the home directory with caches that shouldn't be backed up. it is just a line, it's not taking space.

[nitram]

Sorry for lengthy post, when there's disagreement tweets lead to misunderstanding.

@hiro, please view the bigger picture. A config file entry isn't benign text, there is data that needs processing. In this case filetool.sh uses tar -X to process each list entry every time backup is run, whether the files exist or not, wasted resources. TC's leanness and purity are it's best features, otherwise we would run bloated pre-configured distributions. Everything is purposely designed to be lean: kernel modules separate, binaries stripped, docs removed, base GUI uses FLTK,  etc.

These proposed changes are for base, as they belong in base, which affects piCore and dCore. Keeping a similar base between these is important, provides a consistent and familiar default setup and usage. From the .xfiletool.lst discussion above, piCore doesn't have Flash, neither dCore or piCore have Opera, XUL files appear deprecated by Firefox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XUL). Of the TC installs that use graphics, probably <10% install Opera. Why should these entries be default checked in every fresh install?

It is doubtful default .xfiletool.lst has been modified for several major TC releases. These entries are likely remnants from whoever was developing at the time, software they used in every setup, not necessarily shared or used by others. For consistency, therefore, the choice is to expand .xfiletool.lst to encompass all software, similar to a custom /etc/hosts file (http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/) or just strip it for purity. Obviously the TC way is to strip it down, especially since a custom pre-configured .xfiletool.lst would require a volunteer to actively manage file entries. If software specific entries are included, then what about .fontconfig, .dbus, .thumbnails, crashes, unwanted sqlite files, etc.. It wouldn't take long for 10 active users with different software to come up with a very long list. Better to just strip down the file and let the user decide.

@Rich, changing the fading is necessary, transparency is only part of the issue. Fading 70 is present default in TC, this means 30% dimmer. This is exactly what the 'fading' option is for:

optional off-focus fading of text - when aterm looses focus its contents is dimmed.

http://www.afterstep.org/aterm.php

-fade amount
This option allows for darkening/lightening of colors when aterm is loosing focus. amount is the %value of the desired brightness, where 100 is the original. if amount is less then 100 - colors will be darkened. if amount is less then 0 or more then 100 - colors will be lightened. Lightening can cause some strange looking effects if applied on bright colors. This option causes aterm to use more colors, as the result it is disabled by default. Use --enable-fading ./configure option to enable it. resource fading.

http://www.afterstep.org/aterm.php

This was tested in TC7 with both a white and black plain background, modify ~./Xdefaults to this:
Aterm*transparent: false
Aterm*fading: 70

Open two Aterms and run 'top' in both, toggle back/forth, obvious difference in text brightness even with transparency disabled. If you are not seeing this, query whether you are using an Aterm version that supports fading, Aterm configuration issue, have monitor set to max brightness, etc. With monitor brightness set to 50%, and fading set to 70 there is an obvious difference between active/non-active Aterms. For me this affects readability, even with corrected vision in a well lit office and non-reflective LCD monitor. If 70 doesn't affect your vision threshold, try 50 or lower.

As a terminal is one of TC's most important tools, this is worth addressing. As a >20 year experienced therapist working with visual and perceptual issues, aging, various environmental settings, workplace health and office ergonomics i feel qualified to make this suggestion. TC should be about usability first, the fading option is an *option* and should not be default.

Thanks.

[nitram]

Sorry, provided wrong Aterm man page link and forgot to mention my TC7 install is using Fluxbox, thanks.
https://linux.die.net/man/1/aterm

[Rich]

Hi nitram

Open two Aterms and run 'top' in both, toggle back/forth, obvious difference in text brightness even with transparency disabled. If you are not seeing this, ...

I never said there was no difference in text brightness when switching focus. I said that disabling transparency results in
higher contrast and that a terminal that has lost focus is now quite readable.

With monitor brightness set to 50%, and fading set to 70 there is an obvious ...

I find bright monitors hard on my eyes. My monitors brightness is set to 40% and fading is at the default setting of 70.

[nitram]

Hi Rich.

Thanks for reiterating, got it, you notice the difference but for you it is 'quite readable'. As mentioned earlier, these recommendations are partly to improve usability. From my experience, the default interface of opening side by side Aterms rendered the unfocused terminal virtually unreadable, making it difficult to first learn TC with numerous terminals. So when you say 'changing the fading is not necessary', despite my report of having a 'virtually unreadable' terminal, you are discounting the needs of others. This may not be intentional but that is, in fact, what is happening.

Fortunately your visual threshold is better than mine. Maybe you have better visual acuity, larger monitor, larger or sharper fonts, crisper image. What i am saying is the default didn't work for me in a reasonable environment with reasonable equipment, so it is likely the default won't work well for some others. For me the threshold is 80, that's still 'quite readable'. When i change fading to 90 the difference between minor fading and no fading is almost unnoticable. Maybe your visual threshold is 60 or 50, don't know.

So what's the magic number? Keep it at 70 because it's okay for Rich but not nitram. What about users who have vision that can't be fully corrected, use TC in less than ideal workplace lighting or from a moving vehicle, have a small or dim monitor, use a CRT monitor with glare. To me the solution is simple. Aterm provides the option, it is optional. The most reasonable choice to improve usability for all users after a fresh installation is to disable fading.

An expert user can freely change the default. A new user doesn't even know where the default config option is located. When i first started TC my favorite 'built-in' terminal was Aterm, as i liked the scrolling and did not yet know shift-page up/down scrolling. Despite the fading issue i persevered and struggled when opening >1 terminal at a time. At first i thought it was FLTK related, then i thought it was just built it, never could find an ~/.aterm/ configuration file or directory. Sorry i'm slow but it took quite a while to discover the actual culprit was ~./Xdefaults -> Aterm*fading.

So of course expert users will say just use or install another terminal. I wanted to learn TC with only the tools provided and, as mentioned, did not know how to scroll using the other 'built in' terminals. It is doubtful my experience is unique, others will likely have a similar experience. Peace out.

[coreplayer2]

I think....  [emoji12] it a question of the school you're from.  The text within a transparent window is quite clear when it has focus.
No matter how many windows I have open I'm only reading the one in focus.  Suits me just fine that other windows are faded, helps my eyes focus on the window with relatively brighter text.

If you're used to panels, then I can see where this is going.. I think all windows are in focus in this case.

I have to say, I've always admired the transparent window background, which I know is not the issue here, just saying.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[coreplayer2]

I'd just like to know if a kernel version has been settled upon yet?

[curaga]

4.8.something, but I've been out of commission for months now, and may be for a month more due to personal reasons.

[coreplayer2]

Sorry to here, feel better soon

thanks

[hiro]

i disagree about short posts, long ones are rarely written well enough to warrant their reading. time is limited.

the terminal or its config is easy enough to change, so i never considered it important enough to suggest a change from transparent default (though i always personally change it cause i need higher contrast).

imo the unstripped versions and documentation are actually so important that i regularly miss it in tinycorelinux. if it was just a matter of having it split into multiple extensions it would be excellent, but that's not how most packages are submitted sadly.

if you argue about tar performance can you please measure first, and properly? perhaps there's a bug in the busybox implementation we should fix.
the user can decide regardless by changing the filelists.

if you want to make your tinycore more lean how about you remove some of the extensions instead of microoptimizing base

I agree about the custom hosts file, that would be a welcome addition: right now it's backup always gets overwritten when the hostname is applied iirc. i changed that here, but would be a good idea to allow this by default for everyone i think.

cause you're in that profession: did you ever consider whether one of the devs here might have an astigmatism and thus feels like low contrast is better?

[nitram]

@coreplayer2, agreed everyone computes differently. Unless you are able to provide an example, however, i can not think of any other software that dims when not in focus. Having functional terminals is important in TC, especially after a fresh install and it's one of the only tools available. I can tile FLTK editor against any file manager, web browser or other terminal and never need to click focus or alt-tab just to more easily read the contents. Only the window's title bar usually changes to reveal focus, not the actual data. So for users that require a full brightness Aterm beside a file manager or whatever, this is less than ideal as a default setting.

As outlined, the proposed Aterm changes are for out of the box performance, readability and accessibility. Nothing an expert user can't revert in a few seconds if they want transparency or dimming. There is no suggestion to remove any of this great software. Take care.


@hiro, unless the instruction is simple, i also have an opinion on short posts that do not adequately address the subject, posts not punctuated appropriately or do not properly address the reader, individuals who feel their time is more important than that of someone else, etc.

Benchmarking tar is not necessary, computers process lists efficiently. The difference between 5 and 10 .xfiletool.lst entries would be measured in milliseconds. Ample explanation and sound rational was already provided why the extraneous entries should be trimmed. Honestly never thought a minor configuration suggestion would be resisted so fiercely by an experienced user, who is going to customize the list anyway. If it is such a minor change, it begs the question why the resistance. One last reasonable analogy and i can't explain it any further. I live in the north, it's winter, look out my window, it did not snow, the sidewalks are clear, i go out and *shovel* the sidewalk anyway, 1000 of my neighbours do the same thing.

Similar to above, never thought minor config suggestions would lead to accusation of micro-optimizing. We are all here since we enjoy using a system that is open source and accessible. AFAIK users are encouraged to learn, provide feedback, submit extensions and enhancements. Without users there would be no need for the system. The suggestions outlined are well thought out, rational arguments presented. As you know, i'm not an an/out user, make a few complaints and leave. From my past history on this forum with TC and dCore, i believe my intentions are clear. Please respect your fellow forum members, nobody discourages you from expressing your opinions and suggestions.

A developer with astigmatism would have the same challenges as other individuals with impaired vision. Although impaired, people's vision remains relatively static from moment to moment. If the astigmatism was severe, glancing between a file manager or focused bright Aterm and an unfocused dimmed Aterm would likely make one impossible to read, or the other, possibly both. The first thing the individual would need to do is change Aterm settings to ensure focused/unfocused are the same brightness, as suggested, then adjust global monitor brightness and contrast for maximum visibility so all software can properly be visualized. Forum members could then help the user change font size and fore/background colours as required for contrast, but at least the dimming contrast would already be addressed out-of-the-box.


@curaga, hope everything turns out okay whatever hardship you are experiencing, take good care, life is more important than computing.

[hiro]

"The difference between 5 and 10 .xfiletool.lst entries would be measured in milliseconds"
prove it.

My resistance is not against the effect you're trying to achieve, but your method of justifying it's need.

[nitram]

Sorry hiro, after spending time addressing your poorly thought out 'developer with astigmatism' argument, i'm done jumping through hoops. I've already admitted list processing is fast and there would be a negligible difference between a shorter/longer list. There was other rational for this recommendation, see above if you have time to review, not everything is a timed event.

Fortunately or unfortunately it looks like TC 8 will be on hold for a while. I may submit these suggestions in the near future, although recent interactions with the community have not left many warm fuzzies. Obviously i have no control over whether suggestions are accepted, despite good intentions for a better base. Happy new year all.

[hiro]

Milliseconds are admittedly slow in this context, so I didn't realize you were making an argument in my support. I still want hard numbers though. Regardless of your intention of argument. It *is* curious to me.

None of these things is super urgent or important, so I suggest you take it slowly. Don't become personal please.

Good ideas need time to develop, but they can only grow with a good critical thought process. A good rational argument will ultimately lead to persuasion, so I disagree that there is "no control" from your side. Don't pretend I'm not listening or something. Consensus is always my goal.

I hope you can find some warm fuzzy feelings in real life though. Be it still in this year, or in next year