Tiny Core Linux
General TC => General TC Talk => Topic started by: bmarkus on February 29, 2012, 11:12:51 AM
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Raspberry Pi will be available soon and I'm sure I'm not the only one who already placed an order. According to its specification it is a good target for TC and also price is reasonable even if it is slighltly above the annoinced $35. Another good point wide availability (hopefully) and the unified platform, no segmentation according to different hardware.
It is the time now to start a project for Raspberry Pi to show that there is a life over the 1.8GByte Debian. I'm ready to participate but it must be a team work. Also would be good to do it officially as part of the TC development (there is already an ARM directory at the ibiblio server :) )
What is the view of TC Core Development Team and of course other community members?
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(there is already an ARM directory at the ibiblio server )
Where?
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Raspberry Pi will be available soon and I'm sure I'm not the only one who already placed an order. According to its specification it is a good target for TC and also price is reasonable even if it is slighltly above the annoinced $35. Another good point wide availability (hopefully) and the unified platform, no segmentation according to different hardware.
It is the time now to start a project for Raspberry Pi to show that there is a life over the 1.8GByte Debian. I'm ready to participate but it must be a team work. Also would be good to do it officially as part of the TC development (there is already an ARM directory at the ibiblio server :) )
What is the view of TC Core Development Team and of course other community members?
Please count me in, for what I'm worth.
What is happening with Raspberry and collapsing prices on arm SoCs is impressive: also look at Allwinner A10, which is candidate to power devices even more open than Raspberry itself, and maybe cheaper in the long run:
http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/ (http://rhombus-tech.net/allwinner_a10/)
http://limadriver.org/ (http://limadriver.org/)
The Mele A1000 this morning has been briefly available on aliexpress for 60$:
http://www.mele.cn/en/web/pro_show.aspx?cid=46&pid=60 (http://www.mele.cn/en/web/pro_show.aspx?cid=46&pid=60)
This makes it an early competitor for Raspberry Pi.
I was pissed off for not getting a RaspberryPi Model B this morning at 7am (by the way, it looks like they will manage to fit 256Mb ram even on the cheaper A model, which mitigates the delusion for having to wait), and so I bought an Allwinner-based tablet at 100euro:
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/506135830-Ainol-Novo7-ELF-android-4-0-tablet-pc-capacitive-IPS-8GB-MID-wholesalers.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/506135830-Ainol-Novo7-ELF-android-4-0-tablet-pc-capacitive-IPS-8GB-MID-wholesalers.html)
I am willing to do tests on it, or whatever could be useful.
One problem is the lack of backward compatibility between Arm families. I don't know how this is managed on other distros.
Finally: Bmarkus, are you joking about a supposed arm directory living on ibiblio?
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Raspberry Pi will be available soon and I'm sure I'm not the only one who already placed an order. According to its specification it is a good target for TC and also price is reasonable even if it is slighltly above the annoinced $35. Another good point wide availability (hopefully) and the unified platform, no segmentation according to different hardware.
It is the time now to start a project for Raspberry Pi to show that there is a life over the 1.8GByte Debian. I'm ready to participate but it must be a team work. Also would be good to do it officially as part of the TC development (there is already an ARM directory at the ibiblio server :) )
What is the view of TC Core Development Team and of course other community members?
I am certainly interested. At least to prototype, that is, to use their kernel and modules and see how the Core foundation performs. But, I am not 1 in 10,000 that sold out in minutes, and I am in the USA. So when I might actually get one is unknown. Still as time permits there is virtualization for initial evaluation.
BTW There was an arm directory as well as an x64 directory. They were both later removed. So likely you synced your local copy at that time.
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@Robert
thanks for the answer. Glad to hear that you are interested :) Right, we can start it in a virtual environment, no need for the hardware in the beginning. Actually there are two LINUX versions announced. One is SENECA collage who demonstrated videos but their FEDORA REMIX is not yet available. Second is CNXsoft, their DEBIAN is available with instruction how to run with QEMU. It is a good starting point, I will set it up in the next days:
http://www.cnx-software.com/2012/02/18/raspberry-pi-releases-1st-sd-card-image-debian-how-to-use-it-in-the-emulator/ (http://www.cnx-software.com/2012/02/18/raspberry-pi-releases-1st-sd-card-image-debian-how-to-use-it-in-the-emulator/)
@Curaga
Few weeks ago looking for buggy .dep files at ibiblio with ftp I have seen the arm directory which suggested that there is something going or at least planned :)
@Caminati
Fine, thanks.
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I was looking more towards the Allwinner part, considering it takes a dual-core A9 to match a first-gen single-core Atom, the Allwinner A10 is a single-core A8, and the Pi is about three times slower than an A8.
Because of the huge perf. differences, please name the port(s) specifically ("armv5_hf_neon" instead of "arm" for example). Then a port for future chips will be able to take advantage of the extensions in those cpus.
Each chip family still needs a different kernel sadly, and the ARM mem/string optimizations aren't yet merged in eglibc (see cortexstrings at launchpad).
One problem is the lack of backward compatibility between Arm families. I don't know how this is managed on other distros.
They pick one or a few targets, and everything lower is not supported.
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If it's possible to cross-compile extensions from tc running on other architectures for this new ARM variant. I'm happy to support the effort by porting extensions.
If this is being developed is it possible that it will run on any one of the varieties of plug computers?
cheerio,
solorin
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You also have to decide whether you are going to run big-endian or little-endian.
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Now we learn why no Ubuntu in your raspberry pi.
http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/features/raspberry-pi-interview-eban-upton-reveals-all/ (http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/features/raspberry-pi-interview-eban-upton-reveals-all/)
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Thanks for sharing the link. It is a good interview. Not because of UBUNTU but the Raspberry Pi itself. And it is not a PR article created by Liz, Upton's wife.
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This thread idea sounds very promising...
what on earth is going on in 1.8 gigs of Debian?....when TCL is 12 megabytes?....it's perplexing to say the very least.
I think Debian at it's very basic form is 180 megs....which is still 20 times larger than TCL and that's without any GUI. Maybe Debian with a GUI is infact 30 to 50 times larger than TCL. (or something)
This is just a broad comment about the size of operating systems. Why are these OS's so humongous and large? when TCL clearly proves what can be achieved in so much less space.
It is most likely requiring great knowledge and skill for you to convert TCL over to ARM 5....but it seems that the Pi is the perfect environment for it. Angstrom Linux may weigh in pretty small for the Pi...
Vince.
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So Ubuntu chose ARMv7 as the current minimum. Can't really blame them, it would either have been double the work to do two builds, or having a single v6 build would have been several times slower on v7 hardware than something optimized for v7.
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Local Farnell distributor just informed, that due to the decision made by Farnell they are not authorized to sell Raspberry Pi therefore they are cancelling my order. Friends placed order at Farnell UK got 58 days delivery time. Now I'm cancelling my Raspberry Pi project and will restart few other pending developments. Still I would be happy to see a TC ported. BTW, now Arch Linus is also available fo Raspberry Pi.
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Sorry to hear this. I thought you were in the lucky 10,000. The handling of orders has been a real problem with much misunderstandings. I remain an interested party in waiting.
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Farnell UK now collects registrations for Raspberry Pi only, so I expect availability for June. So it is out of my interest even if I put registration. I have several unfinished projects here so it is good not to start another even if it is exciting just to finish one of them, hopefully. No Linux, pure C on dsPIC32 and a HAM radio APRS communication server and gatway in Python already running on Linux, WIN and ASUS router/Routerboard with OpenWRT.
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The brand new project http://olimex.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/imx233-olinuxino-development-started-today/ (http://olimex.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/imx233-olinuxino-development-started-today/) looks like a serious one.
Also,
If there are interested software developers please contact us at www.olimex.com in 2 weeks we will have some limited number of hardware prototypes to ship to the interested to participate in the project development.
sounds like a call to developers of TC, which could be an appropriate distro, given the limited capabilities of the thingie.
What do people here think?
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IMHO it's far too low-end, a few notches below the Pi even. It also seems to be targetting the Arduino market, instead of the htpc/small server/etc that I see the Pi as for.
Also the perf/$ is horrible, both by itself and compared to the Pi (which also isn't that great by that metric).
With 64mb of ram it's going to be tight for many uses.
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IMHO it's far too low-end, a few notches below the Pi even. It also seems to be targetting the Arduino market, instead of the htpc/small server/etc that I see the Pi as for.
Yes, but demonstrating that TC can run on it would be a point alone.
If Arduino has market, this probably will, too. And, betting on its success, the linux distro being available for it could receive some wordspread.
Also, if you browse Raspi forums, you will find many people having in mind uses for which the iMX233 would be fit.
Also the perf/$ is horrible, both by itself and compared to the Pi (which also isn't that great by that metric).
With 64mb of ram it's going to be tight for many uses.
I think that below a certain price threshold, $ metric dominates perf/$.
Just curious: what are good pieces of hardware maximizing perf/$ metric you know of?
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Yes, but demonstrating that TC can run on it would be a point alone.
It's an armv5, ~400Mhz, 64mb. AFAIK the only existing distro that does compatible binaries is Debian oldstable.
Again, setting the baseline to that would then penalize the Pi, or require two ports.
Merely running TC would take over half of that ram.
Of course, just because I don't see much point doesn't mean it won't happen if someone wants to make it so.
I think that below a certain price threshold, $ metric dominates perf/$.
Just curious: what are good pieces of hardware maximizing perf/$ metric you know of?
On the arm front, looking forward to the Rhombus Tech A10 board. On "existing ARM", the Pi is about the same price while being much better hw (not counting the huge Farnell margins).
In general, right now I'm running an AMD X6, I think it cost 120e. It's been very good for my uses, I can well make use of the six cores.
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It's an armv5, ~400Mhz, 64mb. AFAIK the only existing distro that does compatible binaries is Debian oldstable.
Again, setting the baseline to that would then penalize the Pi, or require two ports.
On the arm front, looking forward to the Rhombus Tech A10 board. On "existing ARM", the Pi is about the same price while being much better hw (not counting the huge Farnell margins).
I'vn't understood yet when, where and at what price rpi will be available, then there is the latest ethernet port problem.
This is getting tiring, after months, so I'm turning my head elsewhere.
Rhombus-tech, too seem somehow stuck, at least taking the activity on news, pcb and bugtraking pages as an assessment. irc and mailing list are discussing about taking part to gsoc, sigh.
olinuxino guys are talking of a matter of days, let's see.
Moreover, this thing will probably be quite open: I understand that they're avoiding gpu-related closures by not having a gpu :)
I've taken a look at the SoC massive manual, and, if I'm not wrong, it will only have basic vesa modes.
Merely running TC would take over half of that ram.
Of course, just because I don't see much point doesn't mean it won't happen if someone wants to make it so.
I will try and see if I can get one.
My point in echoing that to the forum was that maybe if the TC developers contacted the olimex guys, they could have got an alpha unit.
However, I realize that would mean a lot of work, so maybe it's best to wait the more powerful realizations.
In general, right now I'm running an AMD X6, I think it cost 120e. It's been very good for my uses, I can well make use of the six cores.
Too powerful, there's no fun running TC on it :)
PS: Maybe this topic should be moved to another section of the forum? I fail to see how it belongs here.
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Too powerful, there's no fun running TC on it
On the contrary :) I don't believe in hardware increasing and the experience staying the same. Both hardware and software should get better. With sw such as TC you can see the potential of any hw better than running something heavy; this still stands even for powerful hw.
I think I've mentioned this many times, but getting used to extremely fast responses is a nice feeling. Then when you occasionally see much better hw, but with worse sw, you notice how it lags in every operation.
PS: Maybe this topic should be moved to another section of the forum? I fail to see how it belongs here.
Agreed, and moved.
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On the contrary :) I don't believe in hardware increasing and the experience staying the same. Both hardware and software should get better. With sw such as TC you can see the potential of any hw better than running something heavy; this still stands even for powerful hw.
I think I've mentioned this many times, but getting used to extremely fast responses is a nice feeling. Then when you occasionally see much better hw, but with worse sw, you notice how it lags in every operation.
I agree, things working well is a form of beauty ;)
However, it is quite common and plain to see that having more and more powerful hardware resulted in horrible and bloated software, which kills any joy of the progress.
On the other hand, dealing with limited resources often results in coders producing real gems.
Getting back to the topic:
The following olinuxino README update excerpt might be relevant to this discussion, giving some answer about the popint in manufacturing something less performant than raspi:
People keep comparing OLINUXINO with Raspberry Pi and BeagleBone project, so we would like to state the differences here:
Although the projects are similar there are different goals and implementations:
OLINUXINO is completely open source - including hardware and software, this means you have access to all CAD files and sources and you can reuse them for your own personal or commercial project.
There are NO restrictions to manufacture and sell these board for your own use or resale.
OLINUXINO use widely available microcontroller iMX233 which cost USD 5.50 in 100 pcs quantity, this means that people can spin off their own boards and manufacture them cheap as the processor is in TQFP easy to assembly by hobbyist package.
RASPBERRY PI have no released CAD files nor complete schematics, RPi uses processor from Broadcom which is not available for sale in small quantity, it uses BGA package which require expensive setup to assembly.
RPi is designed to be home gadget, OLINUXINO will work in industrial environment -25+85C and will be designed to be low cost but NOISE immune.
BeagleBone have open source CAD hardware files but uses BGA processor and BB board is very complex and hard to manufacture in small quantities.
OLINUXINO uses processor on 454Mhz and have less memory and will not allow fancy graphics, but this is not our intention.
I especially like the focus on openness and simplicity.
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Interesting update on olinuxino:
http://olimex.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/cortex-a8-in-tqfp-sure-allwinner-a13/ (http://olimex.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/cortex-a8-in-tqfp-sure-allwinner-a13/)
Boiled down:
- There is bulgarian company Olimex which have been very effective in delivering the first ten alpha iMX233-based boards, with linux kernel and busybox already booting on it (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/olinuxino/message/187 (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/olinuxino/message/187)) and a final price already published on their page (http://www.olimex.com/dev/pricelist.html (http://www.olimex.com/dev/pricelist.html)). Small talking, big facts.
If they can hold this attitude with respect to the allwinner a13 (see the first link of this post), things will get very interesting.
- Then there are rhombustech/arm-netbook people, who are lost in discussion, with very few concrete (I mean, hardware) achievement. However, their contribution in knowledge dissemination and interest triggering has been fundamental, even with respect to olimex.
I myself am planning to follow their information to have linux on my AllwinnerA10-based tablet, whose hardware seems quite good up to now. Sadly, I have no time at the moment.
- Finally, there is an olinuxino rival project at http://www.ngcoders.com/category/projects/locux-projects (http://www.ngcoders.com/category/projects/locux-projects). They seem to have achieved the alpha stage, however they lack in communication and I won't bet about them getting there.