Tiny Core Linux
Tiny Core Base => TCB Q&A Forum => Topic started by: Triophile on December 27, 2011, 08:54:19 AM
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Hi guys.
I'm having problems getting Xorg 7.6 to work on my MSI MS-7184 mobo with the integrated ATI graphics. The chipset is ATI RS482 northbridge and ATI SB400 southbridge.
As the Xorg 7.6 files were downloading, my screen went blank and the message 'No Video Signal' appeared on the monitor's OSD. After a minute or so, I pressed Ctrl+Alt+Del, and that got me back to the console. I tried 'Xorg -configure', and the reply was 'Xorg not found'. I started X to get back to the desktop, and rebooted.
Despite the AppBrowser saying Xorg 7.6 and its deps were installed, trying 'Xorg -configure' again produced 'Xorg not found' again. I downloaded Xorg 7.6 again, exited to prompt, tried 'Xorg -configure' again, some text flashed up on the screen, with the summary basically being 'computer says no.'
The conf file is titled 'xorg.conf.vesa', and inside I see it lists 'vesa' as the driver in the 'Device' section. Does this mean Xorg has failed to install the ATI/Radeon driver and instead has fallen back to the Xvesa driver?
Section "ServerLayout"
Identifier "X.org Configured"
Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0
InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer"
InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard"
EndSection
Section "Files"
ModulePath "/usr/local/lib/X11/modules"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/misc/"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/OTF"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/"
EndSection
Section "Module"
Load "glx"
Load "dri"
Load "extmod"
Load "dbe"
Load "freetype"
EndSection
Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Keyboard0"
Driver "kbd"
EndSection
Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Mouse0"
Driver "mouse"
Option "Protocol" "auto"
Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5 6 7"
EndSection
Section "Monitor"
Identifier "Monitor0"
Option "DPMS"
EndSection
Section "Device"
Identifier "Card0"
Driver "vesa"
EndSection
Section "Screen"
Identifier "Screen0"
Device "Card0"
Monitor "Monitor0"
DefaultDepth 24
SubSection "Display"
Viewport 0 0
Depth 16
EndSubSection
SubSection "Display"
Viewport 0 0
Depth 24
EndSubSection
EndSection
In case I was doing something wrong (perfectly possible for a newb like me), I reformatted the hard drive, reinstalled TC, and made Xorg 7.6 my first app download, in case there was a conflict with the other apps I downloaded.
I got the same OSD message as above, but allowed the download to continue until it had finished (judging by the traffic light on the ethernet port). Then I tried 'Xorg -configure' again, got a list of the drivers for the various chipsets, and then a line at the bottom which read:
'Xorg: symbol lookup error: /usr/local/lib/X11/modules/drivers/xgixp_drv.so: undefined symbol: LoaderReqSymLists'
Any help much appreciated!
Cheers, Jon.
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The Xorg log reads as per the attachment.
Cheers, Jon.
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Well, I think I'm going to have to put this on the backburner, as I've been banging my head against a wall on this most of today.
I have a persistent install, and having read the Wiki on Xorg, as well as the info in the AppBrowser and in the Xorg README, I can't see what I'm doing wrong.
I tried re-writing the xorg.conf manually, but the next restart just over-wrote it, returning it to xorg.conf.vesa.
Racy Puppy run as a live disc automatically installs what it calls the 'ati radeon' driver for Xorg, and it appears to run fine, so why am I having problems with TC?
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Hi Triophile
I have no experience with Xorg, but I'll do my best to help.
I tried re-writing the xorg.conf manually, but the next restart just over-wrote it, returning it to xorg.conf.vesa.
You have to add etc/X11/xorg.conf to your /opt/.filetool.lst file so that it gets backed up.
The conf file is titled 'xorg.conf.vesa',
That's a sample file that comes with the extension.
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Thanks for that Rich.
OK, maybe part of the problem is that '/opt/.filetool.lst' appears not to exist on my machine! Not sure why. Time for a little investigation...
Cheers, Jon.
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Re-installed TC persistent on a new HDD, and getting the same thing - no '/opt/.filetool.lst'
Could it have something to do with me specifying 'home=sda1' and 'opt=sda1' as boot codes? Either way, I suppose I could just spend another couple of minutes re-installing and omitting those boot codes to see what happens...
Cheers, Jon.
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You should not be using opt= or home= until you are familiar with TC and understand the changes you need to do in
order to use these options.
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I realise that, Gerald, which is why I tried a re-install without specifying those parameters, and still no '/opt/.filetool.lst'.
I think I'll come back to TCL once I've had a bit more time to familiarise myself with Linux in general. In the meantime, Racy Puppy seems to be working well.
Cheers, Jon.
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You probably forgot the -a option to ls ( required to show files that start with '.' ).
ls -a /opt
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Your first post sounds like some parts were not downloaded.
Your log says everything's OK with the Radeon, with a 1024x768 vga monitor detected. Did you get a proper resolution in the console?
I should note that loading Xorg when another X server is running can cause conflicts; it would be better to either load it from the console ("tce-load -wi Xorg-7.6"), or in appbrowser "download only", change it to onboot with appsaudit, and reboot.
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Hi guys.
I have to apologise for not finding filetool.lst and wasting your time: that was due simply to a highly embarrassing newb mistake which I'm loathe to admit: not toggling the view-hidden-items button on in Emelfm2!
With a fresh install, still no luck with Xorg running at higher resolutions, or probably acceleration, I think. The screen's still at 1024x768 on a monitor which has a native resolution of 1280x1024.
One thing I noticed when I had a closer look at my boot messages is that my monitor appears to be providing invalid EDID info, according to the error messages. I had a look on the web, and found a few bits and pieces about EDID corruption. Could that be involved in my current problems in any way?
When I had a look at my latest Xorg log, I also found the following error message:
[ 24.195] (EE) AIGLX error: dlopen of /usr/local/lib/X11/modules/dri/r300_dri.so failed (/usr/local/lib/X11/modules/dri/r300_dri.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory)
[ 24.195] (EE) AIGLX: reverting to software rendering
[ 24.195] (II) AIGLX: Screen 0 is not DRI capable
[ 24.206] (II) AIGLX: Loaded and initialized swrast
[ 24.206] (II) GLX: Initialized DRISWRAST GL provider for screen 0
[ 24.208] (II) RADEON(0): Setting screen physical size to 270 x 203
I've attached the rest of the log in case there's anything in there which might be of use.
In the meantime, I'll try uninstalling Xorg and then downloading it again from the console, as you say curaga.
Thanks again, Jon.
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I uninstalled Xorg, rebooted, and then re-installed it from the console using "tce-load -wi Xorg-7.6". Everything appeared to download fine. Then I typed "sudo su", hit enter, "Xorg -configure", hit enter, then typed "startx", hit enter again, and got the familiar "No video signal" on my monitor's OSD. Ctrl+Alt+Del was unable to break me out of it, so I had to restart, and I'm back with the same 1024x768 resolution as before.
In the xorg.conf (the version which I've edited), I've specified 1280x1024 as a resolution, and a refresh rate of 60Hz. According to my monitor's specs, 1280x1024@60 is an accepted resolution/refresh.
I'm finding it hard to track down Xorg config info pitched at the right level for me on the web, and there seem to be different ways of configuring the same property to achieve the same result, so do please bear with me if there's anything obvious I'm failing to mention or do.
In case my monitor is the source of these problems, I've managed to find some more detailed specs for it, including a mode line, but I believe, from what I've read, that inputting the wrong info into a xorg.conf can permanently damage a monitor, so I'm wary of trying anything along those lines. That said, if my monitor is part of the problem, maybe I just need a different monitor...
Many thanks, Jon.
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[ 24.195] (EE) AIGLX error: dlopen of /usr/local/lib/X11/modules/dri/r300_dri.so failed (/usr/local/lib/X11/modules/dri/r300_dri.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory)
This is in the Xorg-7.6-3d extension
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Hi Triophile
Then I typed "sudo su", hit enter, "Xorg -configure", hit enter, then typed "startx", hit enter again, and got the familiar "No video signal" on my monitor's OSD.
I didn't see the part where you typed:
cp xorg.conf /etc/X11/When you configure Xorg, the configuration file is created in your current directory.
Setting screen physical size to 270 x 203
That's just the size Xorg believes your screen to be in millimeters (10.6 x 8 inches).
You might also want to get a copy of the xorg.conf file from Puppy to use as a quideline.
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Thanks for clearing that up for me Juanito. 3D I'm not worried about, so presumably I can just ignore that error message.
Ah, Rich, I must have missed "cp xorg.conf /etc/X11/" somewhere along the line. I'll rectify that mistake later today and see how I get on.
Thanks guys.
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I realise that, Gerald, which is why I tried a re-install without specifying those parameters, and still no '/opt/.filetool.lst'.
I think I'll come back to TCL once I've had a bit more time to familiarise myself with Linux in general. In the meantime, Racy Puppy seems to be working well.
Cheers, Jon.
When I was in the learning phase in Xorg (still learning..), I booted from puppy, knoppix, antix, slitaz and everytime I saved the different conf files and log files (knoppix and puppy gave the best automatic configurations). Now I have a good conf file putting my screen at his maximum pixel conf in xorg74.
And: use the boot code noacpi?
I would personally try the new commandline
Kernel command line (see your log file): initrd=/boot/tinycore.gz quiet mydata=mydata lst=onboot.lst noswap waitusb=5:UUID="2ae0b8a0-7a21-4044-bcb9-bebff368a38f" tce=UUID="2ae0b8a0-7a21-4044-bcb9-bebff368a38f"
BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz
(take away the norestore, put a onboot.lst in the tce directory with the lines content fluff.tcz and Xorg76.tcz, create a backup mydata.tgz with a conf file to be optimized step by step with the knoppix puppy.. conf files data).
And: perhaps you should load the latest 4.2 iso. Then so far I understood, the file.lst is already installed.
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Hi floppy.
Might be a while before I can understand more than about 10% of your post, technically-speaking ;-) The advice to save the various config files certainly sounds wise though.
Rich: I tried "cp xorg.conf /etc/X11/" after "Xorg -configure" and before "startx" and the response was:
"cp: can't stat xorg.conf : No such file or directory"
Where does that xorg.conf which is being built up according to the Xorg log actually get filed when it's complete? If I could find the damn thing, I could copy it manually to /etc/X11/. Given my record with finding files, it's probably right under my nose...
Thanks, Jon.
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Hi Triophile
If it's anywhere on your system, this will find it:
sudo find / -iname xorg*
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Hmmm. I typed in "sudo find / -iname xorg*" Rich and it was unable to find any xorg.conf apart from xorg.conf.vesa in /etc/X11/ None of the other xorg* files it came up with were xorg.conf or xorg.conf*
I typed "sudo find / -iname xorg*" both after "Xorg -configure" and after I'd re-started Xorg, and no luck either way.
Could the file be going by another name, or am I doing something stupid again?
Thanks, Jon.
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Hi Triophile
Sounds like it's not creating config file for some reason. What happens if you take a copy of the
config file from Puppy and use that?
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Hope you had a good New Year's guys.
Rich, I tried the Puppy xorg.conf, and my keyboard and mouse stopped working :-) On top of that, the screen stayed at 1024 x 768 (in Puppy, it's set at 1280 x 1024). Interesting thing from reading the Puppy Xorg, though, is that the driver is listed as"vesa", not "ati" or "radeon", despite Puppy telling me it was using the "ati radeon" driver in the pop-up configuration box.
I installed TC 4.2 a few days ago, and am getting the same behaviour with Xorg: ie, no discernible xorg.conf, but a Xorg log which shows the same sort of probing and configuring as my previous installation.
I've been digging up a bit more info about my monitor, and found a couple of xorg.confs on the web which incorporate it, so I'm going to try putting together my own xorg.conf again from what's in my own Xorg log, and what I've found on the web.
Wish me luck!
Cheers, Jon.
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OK, this xorg.conf is a work in progress, but, I'm hoping, close to being finished.
Are there any glaring errors in there (syntax, or anything else for that matter)?
All of the numbers relating to the monitor (modelines, horizontal and vertical frequencies, etc) have either come from my own Xorg log, or from those of others who own the same monitor, so I think there's a good chance they are all accurate.
Many thanks, Jon.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Section "ServerLayout"
Identifier "X.org Configured"
Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0
InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer"
InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard"
EndSection
Section "Files"
ModulePath "/usr/local/lib/X11/modules"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/misc/"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/OTF"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/"
EndSection
Section "Module"
Load "glx"
Load "dri"
Load "extmod"
Load "dbe"
Load "freetype"
EndSection
Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Keyboard0"
Driver "kbd"
Option "Protocol" "standard"
Option "XkbModel" "pc105"
Option "XkbLayout" "gb"
EndSection
Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Mouse0"
Driver "mouse"
Option "Protocol" "auto"
Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
EndSection
Section "Monitor"
Identifier "Monitor0"
HorizSync 30-80
VertRefresh 56-75
DisplaySize 380 300
Modeline "1280x1024"x60.0 108.00 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +hsync +vsync (64.0 kHz)
Modeline "1024x768"x60.0 65.00 1024 1048 1184 1344 768 771 777 806 -hsync -vsync (48.4 kHz)
Modeline "800x600"x56.2 36.00 800 824 896 1024 600 601 603 625 +hsync +vsync (35.2 kHz)
Modeline "640x480"x59.9 25.18 640 656 752 800 480 489 492 525 -hsync -vsync (31.5 kHz)
Option "PreferredMode" "1280x1024"
EndSection
Section "Device"
Identifier "Card0"
Driver "radeon"
Option "BusID" "PCI:0000:01:05.0"
EndSection
Section "Screen"
Identifier "Screen0"
Device "Card0"
Monitor "Monitor0"
DefaultDepth 24
SubSection "Display"
Viewport 0 0
Depth 24
Modes "1280x1024"
EndSubSection
SubSection "Display"
Viewport 0 0
Depth 16
Modes "1024x768"
EndSubSection
EndSection
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Interesting. Post xour xorg.log here with this conf file. Post the end of your dmesg output.
Perhaps, use the firmware.tcz ? see here what this firmware has http://packages.debian.org/sid/firmware-linux-nonfree (http://packages.debian.org/sid/firmware-linux-nonfree)
According the gentoo xorg wiki, a command can make changing your resolution
$ cvt 1280 x 1024 etc., so perhaps you could put this command + others (if no success with the xorg.conf) in a start script?
and .. http://www.x.org/wiki/radeonBuildHowTo.. (http://www.x.org/wiki/radeonBuildHowTo..) and.. (Mr. Google)
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OK, using the xorg.conf above, Xorg failed to run, producing the error message:
"Parse error on line 46 of section Monitor in file blah.../xorg.conf
ModeLine dotclock expected
Problem parsing the config file
Error parsing the config file"
The line in question is:
"Modeline "1280x1024"x60.0 108.00 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +hsync +vsync (64.0 kHz)"
I used PowerStrip on my Windows machine to confirm that the frequency 108.00 is correct for the 1280x1024 resolution, and it is.
As far as I'm aware, the dotclock is the number "108.00". If this is the case, I wonder if the problem is caused by what appears to be a partially-corrupt EDID on my monitor, as the ModeLine above was the only one not found by Xorg in the xorg log. If that's the case, I'm guessing I'll have to persuade Xorg to ignore the monitor's EDID altogether and go with the ModeLines I've supplied. Not sure if there's any other info I'd need to add, but I found a few bits and pieces on the web regarding ignoring the EDID info when it's corrupt.
If, on the other hand, dotclock relates to my video card, from what I've read, I could "x -probeonly" and get some results that way, though I'm not too sure how to add the clocks to the xorg.conf.
Cheers, Jon.
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One time, I scanned like you (other values)
.. HorizSync 30-80
VertRefresh 56-75
..
but did not use the other parameters (double usage? not the same range?)...
DisplaySize 380 300
Modeline "1280x1024"x60.0 108.00 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +hsync +vsync (64.0 kHz)
(I would personally make sure this modeline would have been confirmed in another log file).
here: http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,12144.msg65105.html#msg65105 (http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,12144.msg65105.html#msg65105)
So, I would use in your case
Modeline "1280x1024"x60.0 108.00 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +hsync +vsync (64.0 kHz) without HorizSync and VertRefresh (I dont know how to activate such modeline; I never does it)
Or no modeline and ..
HorizSync 60-65
VertRefresh 55-110 ? (extend the range?)
My (non professional) evaluation is that 108 ist out of the range you restricted in " VertRefresh 56-75", so perhaps its why it say no way.. ?
Im guessing.
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Mmmm, I was wondering whether to take the "full information" or "minimal information" approach to Xorg...
OK, I'll remove the horizontal sync and vertical refresh info, and the monitor size, and see how I go.
This page was useful for me in understanding a bit more about ModeLines:
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/handbook/x-config.html (http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/handbook/x-config.html)
Down at the bottom is a useful explanation.
PowerStrip gave me the info I needed to confirm that the ModeLine for "1280x1024" in the Xorg log appears to be correct (at least, the info matches the info displayed for the same monitor at 1280x1024 under XP:
(http://home.btconnect.com/audiostate/powerstripoutput.jpg)
That said, it appears I can omit what follows the final four-digit number in each of the ModeLines, so maybe I'll get rid of those items too...
It seems to be the case that 108.00MHz is the frequency at which the pixel clock (AKA dotclock) is running, whereas the horizontal sync is expressed in kHz, and the vertical refresh in Hz. I'm not quite sure which measurements might be messing each other up, but if keeping just the ModeLine works, +1 to Floppy :-)
Thanks, Jon.
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Sorry, Floppy, looks as if the +1 goes to me instead ;-) This assumes, of course, that Xorg continues to run correctly on this machine (and is, indeed, operating with acceleration).
I had another look around the internet at general Xorg ModeLines, and realised that I'd got the syntax in all of the ModeLines wrong.
I changed this:
Modeline "1280x1024"x60.0 108.00 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +hsync +vsync (64.0 kHz)
to this:
Modeline "1280x1024x60.0" 108.00 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +hsync +vsync
The reason Xorg couldn't parse the line, or find the dotclock, was that x60.0 was the first item after the double quotes, which is where the dotclock frequency should be. In addition to this change, I removed (64.0 kHz) from the end of this line and the other ModeLines, though I doubt it was a problem. As I'd changed the start of the ModeLines by moving the double quotes, I had to change the PreferredMode string accordingly, and the Modes string in the Screen subsections.
I'm writing this with a 1280x1024x60 screen resolution, and a British keyboard layout, so it looks as if the xorg.conf has worked fine, but only time will tell!
Many thanks for your help, Floppy, and thanks too for the help of everyone else who contributed to this thread. Apologies I'm such a slow learner!
Cheers, Jon.
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Well, it appears to be official: the Xorg log tells me that acceleration is enabled, and successive restarts have worked perfectly.
Sorted!
Now I should be able to get the ropey SiS onboard graphics working on my HP thin client...
Cheers, Jon.
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hello jon,
can you please post your full xorg.conf here?
I will need to see how is your final syntax of your full xorg.conf
Im not hacking.. and will create next time a new thread with..
I will have to force a modeline on a P4 I got today (3GHz! 1GB RAM 40GB HDD! wow..).
My xorg76 log show
..
[ 21.813] (II) intel(0): Modeline "1600x1200"x75.0 202.50 1600 1664 1856 2160 1200 1201 1204 1250 +hsync +vsync (93.8 kHz)
[ 21.813] (II) intel(0): Modeline "1280x1024"x75.0 135.00 1280 1296 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +hsync +vsync (80.0 kHz)
[ 21.813] (II) intel(0): Modeline "1152x864"x75.0 108.00 1152 1216 1344 1600 864 865 868 900 +hsync +vsync (67.5 kHz)
[ 21.813] (II) intel(0): Modeline "1024x768"x75.1 78.80 1024 1040 1136 1312 768 769 772 800 +hsync +vsync (60.1 kHz)
..
it goes automatically to 1600x1200 which is too much.
I must try to reduce step by step and see what would be the best modeline. So, I would like to use jon xorg.conf to see the structure he had.
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Hi Floppy, hope you're well.
I'm trying to straighten out a Windows machine at the moment, but later tonight, or some time tomorrow, I should be able to post my final xorg.conf.
Cheers, Jon.
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Hi floppy.
OK, here's my Xorg file:
Section "ServerLayout"
Identifier "X.org Configured"
Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0
InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer"
InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard"
EndSection
Section "Files"
ModulePath "/usr/local/lib/X11/modules"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/misc/"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/OTF"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/"
FontPath "/usr/local/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/"
EndSection
Section "Module"
Load "glx"
Load "dri"
Load "extmod"
Load "dbe"
Load "freetype"
EndSection
Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Keyboard0"
Driver "kbd"
Option "Protocol" "standard"
Option "XkbModel" "pc105"
Option "XkbLayout" "gb"
EndSection
Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Mouse0"
Driver "mouse"
Option "Protocol" "auto"
Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice"
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
EndSection
Section "Monitor"
Identifier "Monitor0"
HorizSync 30-80
VertRefresh 56-75
DisplaySize 380 300
Modeline "1280x1024x60.0" 108.00 1280 1328 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +hsync +vsync
Modeline "1024x768x60.0" 65.00 1024 1048 1184 1344 768 771 777 806 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "800x600x56.2" 36.00 800 824 896 1024 600 601 603 625 +hsync +vsync
Modeline "640x480x59.9" 25.18 640 656 752 800 480 489 492 525 -hsync -vsync
Option "PreferredMode" "1280x1024x60.0"
EndSection
Section "Device"
Identifier "Card0"
Driver "radeon"
Option "BusID" "PCI:0000:01:05.0"
EndSection
Section "Screen"
Identifier "Screen0"
Device "Card0"
Monitor "Monitor0"
DefaultDepth 24
SubSection "Display"
Viewport 0 0
Depth 24
Modes "1280x1024x60.0"
EndSubSection
SubSection "Display"
Viewport 0 0
Depth 16
Modes "1024x768x60.0"
EndSubSection
EndSection
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The machine I use the Xorg on is still working very well. I switched from running TC on a USB stick to running it on a 40GB SATA drive, and that yielded a very useful improvement in the speed of the machine.
It's not perfect, but for a single-core 2GHz Athlon 64 running with integrated graphics, it's great. The mobo and CPU don't use too much power either: it probably averages 50watts, and peaks at about 75watts when I'm streaming 780p video off YouTube.
On a further positive note, I was lucky enough to get another HP T5720 thin client off eBay, for £25 including postage, this time with the expansion bay which will allow me to fit a PCI graphics card :-) No more problems with SiS and Xorg! Mind you, the power consumption will be higher...
Cheers, Jon.