[SOLVED] USB Boot fails on Dell -- USB-ZIP, USB-HDD and Frugal

[secdroid]

Tinycore 3.8 is very slick.  Docs have also improved since last I installed.  Nice job!

The options in tc-install allowed me to easily try different USB stick formats to try to get my cranky Dell Inspiron 530 (March 2009 BIOS; latest available) to boot from USB.  I'm still failing.

Note: This is not a TC issue.  I have no success with other distros like KNOPPIX 6.7.0 on the Dell, while my little Acer Aspire One netbook will happily boot TC, KNOPPIX or anything else I try from USB.  I was hoping that the TC user community and the lovely tc-install options might help to resolve this.

All tests with TC 3.8.  It runs fine from CD on the Dell.  Used PNY Attache 512 MB USB stick.  (My KNOPPIX tests used a larger stick, of course, but 512 MB eliminates some potential BIOS issues.)

First tc-install: tinycore, USB-ZIP, whole disk (dev /sdc), vfat.  Dell BIOS identifies the USB stick as "USB-ZIP0 USB Flash Memory 1.00" and gives "Boot error" when I tried to boot it.  (I did not test this install on my Acer, but it looked good to "fdisk -l" and the appropriate files were present.)

Second tc-install: tinycore, USB-HDD, whole disk, vfat.  Dell BIOS acted exactly like the first test.  (Did not identify it as USB-HDD.)  Boots fine in my Acer.

Third tc-install: tinycore, Frugal, whole disk, vfat.  Dell BIOS acted exactly like the first test.  (Identify it as USB-ZIP.)  Boots fine in my Acer.

I know that BIOS quality issues can plague USB booting, but I was under the impression that post-2006 Dell's could do either a USB-ZIP or USB-HDD boot.  Is that incorrect?  Anything wrong with my testing procedure?  Suggestions?

[maro]

secdroid: I trust you have (according to this advise) put 'Removable' as the 'First Boot Device'. You might want to (as a way to be independent of this setting) select the boot device on a one-off basis: during the boot phases of most BIOS an option exists to select the boot device just for that one session (on my systems that is typically achieved by pressing the 'F12' key and then selecting a device, but YMMV).

Furthermore on (older) systems that don't support booting from USB via the BIOS I've achieved good results with the help of the Plop boot manager. You could use this as a primary or secondary boot loader and then configure it to boot from USB as it's default setting. For example I own two older notebooks that still have a Win2000 or WinXP system installed on their hard disks and therefore use the 'NTLDR' mechanism as their primary boot loader. I now use 'Plop' as a secondary boot loader after adding it to the 'c:\boot.ini' file. That way it does not "upset the apple cart", but is available if I want to boot from USB.

[secdroid]

secdroid: I trust you have (according to this advise) put 'Removable' as the 'First Boot Device'. You might want to (as a way to be independent of this setting) select the boot device on a one-off basis: during the boot phases of most BIOS an option exists to select the boot device just for that one session (on my systems that is typically achieved by pressing the 'F12' key and then selecting a device, but YMMV).

I was testing by using the "F12" at boot method.  Under "Removables," BIOS showed two options: Floppy and the USB stick as USB-ZIP0.  I selected the usb stick and got "Boot error." 

When I googled for answers, I saw comments to the effect that 530/531s were problemmatic, but I also saw comments to the effect that post-2006 Dell BIOS should boot USB-HDD.  Maybe not.  (Last time I buy a Dell; will build my own using quality mobo vendor next time.)

Furthermore on (older) systems that don't support booting from USB via the BIOS I've achieved good results with the help of the Plop boot manager. You could use this as a primary or secondary boot loader and then configure it to boot from USB as it's default setting. For example I own two older notebooks that still have a Win2000 or WinXP system installed on their hard disks and therefore use the 'NTLDR' mechanism as their primary boot loader. I now use 'Plop' as a secondary boot loader after adding it to the 'c:\boot.ini' file. That way it does not "upset the apple cart", but is available if I want to boot from USB.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I noticed that Plop was mentioned in one of the TC help files and I skimmed the Plop documentation.

I had tried Plop with a circa-1995 laptop in the past and it didn't work for me, but I didn't have another way to verify my USB stick at the time.  The Acer netbook is helpful to ensure that I have a properly-configured stick, so Plop deserves another shot.  Might even give the old notebook another go at USB booting, even though it has a working TC install.

I had hoped to avoid Plop on the Dell as I have multiple boot loaders due to adding a second disk with Windows Server 2008 which, in turn, added a BCD-based boot manager to my /dev/hda GRUB which had booted my Linuxes and Vista.  I currently have the MS BCD BM chained from my GRUB. 

Looks like it might be prudent to look at moving GRUB off of the /dev/hda MBR to a Linux partiton, figuring out where to put Plop, and working with BCD Editor to try to make it all work.  Shouldn't be necessary, but looks like it is.  Messy.

Thanks for the pointers.  I really want to move from CDs to USB sticks on the Dell, if at all possible.

[maro]

Aha, I see you are really "spoiled for choice" if it comes to the question of where to put each systems boot loader.

I was first skeptical whether 'Plop' would be of real value for me, so I initially only used it from a boot floppy (luckily those notebooks are that old that they still have such a device). I just did not want to give a tool I did not know too much "prominence" in the boot process (e.g. by installing it too high up the "food chain"). After I managed to confirm it's usefulness I decided to go down the 'boot.ini' route, and configure it (via 'plpcfgbt.exe' or 'plpcfgbtGUI.exe' when using Windows, or via 'plpcfgbt' when using Linux) to default to USB and have a fairly short timeout (or none at all in which case it will ALWAYS and ONLY boot USB).

Obviously I have not tested it with a BCD-based boot manager, but the documentation indicates that it supports Vista and Win7 (but fails to mention 2008 or 2008R2). But I'm sure you'll find out soon enough ...

[secdroid]

I created a Plop boot floppy and got mixed results.

The Plop floppy on the Dell 530 will boot a TC USB-HDD stick!  However, I never got a chance to set the TC options.  It plopped right into syslinux and then to a working TC dekstop.  I don't know whether there are any Plop config options that will let me see the TC boot cheat code config stage.  This is hugely important to me.  Needs more research.

***

Note: There is a documented restriction that Plop does not have USB kbd drivers.  Oddly, I was able to change options in Plop setup via my Dell's USB kbd.  Don't know what to make of this.

Note: I ran across a mention that one needs to cold boot the Dell to see a USB device in BIOS.  Warm boot won't do.  True for me.

***

Just for kicks, I took my Plop floppy and USB-HDD stick to my circa-1995 Micron laptop.  Tried Plop USB mode default [unset], force USB 1.1 mode 1, and force USB 1.1 mode 2 and never got past the syslinux stage.  The USB stick's activity light was blinking away, but I never got TC up.  I rebooted to the TC 2.1 install on the Micron's HD and tried to mount and read the USB stick.  It would not stay mounted.  I don't recall what sort of USB stick formats I was using successfully with TC 2.1.

TC 2.1 was installed originally by booting the Damn Small Linux floppy and USB stick.  I used it to copy down TC and boot via GRUB.    The CD drive is broken, so I had to use Rube Goldberg methods.

***

A couple of Plop articles that might be of interest --

http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/445010:weekend-project-use-the-plop-boot-manager-to-boot-older-computers-from-usb

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/16822/boot-from-a-usb-drive-even-if-your-bios-wont-let-you/

[maro]

... However, I never got a chance to set the TC options. It plopped right into syslinux and then to a working TC dekstop. ...

This is nothing that 'Plop' controls but a consequence of the settings in 'syslinux.cfg'.

The default file created by 'tc-install' does not contain something like

Code: [Select]

PROMPT 1
TIMEOUT 30 If you would add those two lines at the beginning of 'syslinux.cfg' on your USB stick you should be able to see the 'boot:' prompt and have 3 seconds to enter additional boot codes.

Two more notes on this:
(1) The timeout value is measured in 0.1 sec, hence a value of 30 gives you 3 seconds.
(2) As with the ISO the default label (e.g. 'tinycore') will have to be entered prior to any additional boot code (e.g. 'tinycore text'). If you are as lazy as I am you might want to shorten that name (e.g. to 'tc').

[secdroid]

Thanks for the pointer.  Just what I needed.  I added the lines up until the last "#" comment line to the syslinux.cfg created by tc-install on my USB-HDD stick ---

Code: [Select]

#
# Wait 5 seconds unless the user types something, but
# always boot after 15 minutes.
PROMPT 1
TIMEOUT 50
TOTALTIMEOUT 9000
#
DEFAULT tinycore
LABEL tinycore
KERNEL /boot/bzImage
APPEND initrd=/boot/tinycore.gz swapfile waitusb=5:UUID="3ED2-F0E6" tce=UUID="3ED2-F0E6"

This works well, except for a minor nitpick -- I can't access the cheatcode/bootcode prompts by clicking the function keys, as I often do on my CD boots.  Not a big deal.  I'll just print them out.

Now to learn how to put multiple distros on one USB stick and make it bootable via floppy Plop.  Then I can move Plop to my HD, probably invoked via GRUB.   

[maro]

... I can't access the cheatcode/bootcode prompts by clicking the function keys, as I often do on my CD boots ...

Again, no surprises here as the CD-ROM image contains in '/boot/isolinux.cfg' the following entries:

Code: [Select]

F1 boot.msg
F2 f2
F3 f3
F4 f4 plus the respective files (i.e. '/boot/f2', '/boot/f3', '/boot/f4' and '/boot/boot.msg').

I guess you'll find that an exercise of RTFM would have helped you answering some of your questions yourself.