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Author Topic: some notes on the philosophy behind TC  (Read 6738 times)

Offline bigpcman

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Re: some notes on the philosophy behind TC
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2010, 07:52:10 PM »
TC will be held back in this regard by being x86 - As long as ARM rules embedded land, TC has no place there.

Here's a nice little embedded system module that tc would be well suited for:
http://www.portwell.com/products/detail.asp?CUSTCHAR1=PQ7-M100G

Here's a bunch of Teeny weeny Linux SBCs:
http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/Linux-For-Devices-Articles/Teeny-weeny-Linux-SBCs/

I agree though snap dragon has got a big position in mobile devices.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 07:59:36 PM by bigpcman »
big pc man

Offline althalus

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Re: some notes on the philosophy behind TC
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2010, 09:49:36 PM »
There are far more atom devices in that list than I expected... I like being proven wrong every now and then. Amusing to note that one of them even had a celeron processor :P

Offline curaga

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Re: some notes on the philosophy behind TC
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2010, 02:54:16 AM »
Ya, it's battery-powered embedded stuff where x86 so far is a niche. Moorestown will help, but will still lose to ARM.

On Windows system rot, one of the big reasons is the registry. Resident in ram and always growing, how could it not start degrading performance? Linux so far doesn't have one; though gconf comes close. Luckily it's only gnome crap, not present on other systems (or maybe on xfce optionally?).
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline jamtat

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Re: some notes on the philosophy behind TC
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2010, 09:02:25 AM »
Bloat has quite a negative impact on apt's performance, in my experience.
As a counter-example, take the mythbuntu box that stands behind me right now. I believe it's currently on its 5th dist-upgrade in the mythbuntu release cycle. The OS was probably originally installed 3 years ago, maybe a bit more. I've never seen any degradation in apt's performance on this machine. There are some variables to take into account, though. I did a slight upgrade to the CPU (2.0 Ghz replaced by 2.6Ghz) and RAM (1 GB upped to 1.7 GB). I think the upgrades occurred about a year ago, and I'm prety sure I did three dist-upgrades under the old hardware. I don't recall seeing any appreciable degradation in apt's performance prior to the hardware upgrade, and have definitely not noted any after any dist-upgrade I've done since installing the newer CPU and additional RAM. To reiterate, I've noted zero degradation in performance on this machine since the initial installation/set-up about 3 years ago.
Quote
system rot really only starts happening on bloated systems.
I have yet to see any system rot as I've defined it (i.e., as degradation of system performance such as I so commonly saw on Windows machines that had been in use for some time) on any of my bloated machines. Maybe some really sensitive equipment could detect a degradation, but I certainly can't.
Quote from: curaga
On Windows system rot, one of the big reasons is the registry. Resident in ram and always growing, how could it not start degrading performance? Linux so far doesn't have one; though gconf comes close. Luckily it's only gnome crap, not present on other systems (or maybe on xfce optionally?).
Another counter-example is in line here. The two-year-old Arch system I cited in my OP for its resiliency and continued stable and effective performance actually uses gnome as the WM/DE (a concession to the technophobia of my wife: personally, I prefer minimalist WM's like dwm--which I have installed on my office computer and netbook). Despite the windows-likeness of gnome's design, it has not caused me anything like the performance degradation issues I used to experience under Windows. My Arch machine with gnome continues to operate just as effectively as it did in the days after I initially installed the OS.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the phrase "system rot" in TC parlance means, not degradation of system performance, but rather serves to villify a (non-minimalist) design philosophy prevalent within the Linux world and with which the TC development community disagrees. For the record, the minimalist TC design philosophy appeals to me as a healthy antidote to current trends in Linux development and computing in general.

James
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:06:27 AM by jamtat »

Offline thane

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Re: some notes on the philosophy behind TC
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2010, 03:57:53 PM »
"I'm coming to the conclusion that the phrase "system rot" in TC parlance means, not degradation of system performance, but rather serves to villify a (non-minimalist) design philosophy prevalent within the Linux world..."

What brought me to TC was the extreme customization features. I'd been using a Windows box and had come to the belated realization that 95% of my personal computing was websurfing and e-mail, with occasional downloads of mp3 and pdf files. I wanted to see what was the minimal number of apps I could actually get by with. TC and an old Compaq box gave me the chance -- I needed more than a browser but not much.

I've had plenty of experience with system rot on Windows systems, but haven't used other Linux distros for long enough to say if it's a problem with those. Some people think it is and appreciate TC's attempt to deal with it. Not sure what your quarrel with TC's design philosophy is -- there are lots of free Linux distros to choose from.

Offline jamtat

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Re: some notes on the philosophy behind TC
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2010, 03:59:43 PM »
Not sure what your quarrel with TC's design philosophy is -- there are lots of free Linux distros to choose from.
No quarrel. Just trying to understand it better.

James

Offline thane

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Re: some notes on the philosophy behind TC
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2010, 04:07:56 PM »
Was going to edit, but the 'hybrid' type of setup (haven't tried it) is supposed to be more like a standard installation:

http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html

Offline jur

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Re: some notes on the philosophy behind TC
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2010, 06:27:47 PM »
RE system rot, it seems to me a soon as you have an permanent installation, there is the possibility of files getting corrupted either via hardware failure, incorrect shutdowns, atmospheric neutrons, newer versions getting overwritten by obsolete ones and so on. In short, anything at all that might alter files in any way at all, including unintentional deleting.

Entropy exists, it is the most fundamental universal law. Data can only go one way. You can reduce the probability of data corruption but it is in principle impossible to stop it.

It is of course possible that the probability is so low that it can be safely ignored.

But it certainly is also a function of how much a setup is fiddled with. On my work winXP, I leave it alone and it has worked well for a number of years now. At home, with me trying out software and getting rid of it, my system inevitably deteriorated. Performance also deteriorated with installation of more and more software as many pieces of s/w leave their own pre-loaders, accelerators, upgrade checkers etc etc littered in the OS.

Offline Plasma

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Re: some notes on the philosophy behind TC
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2010, 09:58:27 PM »
"TC will be held back in this regard by being x86 - As long as ARM rules embedded land, TC has no place there."



..Sorry but, could'nt help but read this post and it's really a shame that TC has no ambitions in the ARM area.  It would rock in there as well, in mho, anyways.

.......Intel's MeeGo Linux Distro, seems to be fillling a niche in the mobile phone and Netbook OS markets. I thought this was interesting:

<html>http://techviewz.org/2010/05/nokia-n920-with-meego-os-will-boost.html</html>


Later

Plasma
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 10:33:39 PM by Plasma »
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