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Author Topic: Wayland  (Read 3595 times)

Offline jconnor

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Wayland
« on: March 18, 2011, 01:05:33 PM »
I have watched some of the videos on Wayland.  Looks pretty cool.  Is that something that could eventually be used with TC?

Offline curaga

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2011, 11:17:25 PM »
Yes. It requires a KMS console and a recent mesa, so it might not run right now, but nothing's stopping it from running in the future.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline pq5190362

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2016, 10:58:44 AM »
Any update on Wayland?

The GNOME 3 Wayland session is really impressive, very smooth tear-free experience with much less lag than X11.

Offline curaga

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2016, 02:29:04 AM »
As per other topics, Wayland's size, runnable hw and dependencies preclude it from being included in the base. It does not exist as an extension currently since nobody was interested in making some - if you'd like to run it, please create the extensions.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline Juanito

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2016, 03:12:43 AM »
'looks like santa came early this year - wayland posted to x86 and x86_64 repos

Offline pq5190362

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 04:00:14 AM »
As per other topics

Which topics?

Wayland's size

Please name the size, ideally in comparision.

runnable hw

Wayland and Weston can be run with software rendering since v1.1:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI4MTE
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM0Njg

and dependencies

Which dependencies?

'looks like santa came early this year - wayland posted to x86 and x86_64 repos

Thanks a lot "Santa"  ;D :D :P ;).

Now we're still missing a compositor though, such as Weston for example:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/wayland#Requirements

 ;)

Could you possibly also add Weston to the repo and upgrade gtk3.tcz to the latest version, since a current version of GTK+ 3 is required for Wayland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)#Toolkit_support

?

Offline Juanito

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2016, 04:40:03 AM »
wayland becomes a dep of libEGL, which means libEGL extension grows in size (not such a big deal) and that X users get +/- 100kb of  wayland extension they can't use.

The gtk3 extension is +/- current at 3.22.0 and it will compile against wayland. Compiling mutter with wayland support fails for me.

I suspect there will be a problem with libinput (required by wayland), the latest versions of this use the udev hwdb, which is not present in tinycore.

Offline pq5190362

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2016, 05:00:04 AM »
The gtk3 extension is +/- current at 3.22.0

Not in the x86 repo, which is at 3.14:

http://repo.tinycorelinux.net/7.x/x86/tcz/gtk3.tcz.info

and it will compile against wayland. Compiling mutter with wayland support fails for me.

I suspect there will be a problem with libinput (required by wayland), the latest versions of this use the udev hwdb, which is not present in tinycore.

See:


http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/systemd/gnome/mutter.html

Mutter Dependencies
Required
Clutter-1.26.0, gnome-desktop-3.22.0, libxkbcommon-0.7.0, UPower-0.99.4, and Zenity-3.22.0

Recommended
gobject-introspection-1.50.0, libcanberra-0.30, and startup-notification-0.12

Recommended (Required to build the Wayland compositor)
libinput-1.5.3, Wayland-1.12.0, wayland-protocols-1.7, and Xorg-Server-1.19.0 (with Xwayland). Additionally, Cogl-1.22.2, Clutter-1.26.0 and GTK+-3.22.4 need to be built with Wayland support.

 ;)

Offline Juanito

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2016, 05:47:02 AM »
weston will run in a window under X without Xwayland and the weston terminal accepts keyboard and mouse input so perhaps the hwdb is not so vital after all.

Offline pq5190362

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2016, 05:57:30 AM »

Offline hiro

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2016, 06:43:40 AM »
Any update on Wayland?

The GNOME 3 Wayland session is really impressive, very smooth tear-free experience with much less lag than X11.

please show me how to introduce that "lag" visibly so i can reproduce this.

Offline pq5190362

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2016, 07:28:52 AM »
The GNOME 3 Wayland session is really impressive, very smooth tear-free experience with much less lag than X11.
please show me how to introduce that "lag" visibly so i can reproduce this.

Easy:

Start GNOME 3 @ X (with Mutter as the hardware accelerated compositing window manager incl. Vsync). Now open a window and place the mouse cursor on the window titlebar and click and hold the left mouse button and move the mouse around to move the window around. As you can see, the mouse cursor is faster than the window movement, i.e. there's some kind of input/rendering/drawing lag.

This will also be true and in many cases even worse than GNOME 3 with other X shells using compositing window managers. Take XFCE4 + Compton for example. Running XFCE4 with Compton results in proper VSync (unlike xfwm4). However, there's some huge input lag. In this case, the window movement is even much slower than the mouse cursor (compared to GNOME 3 @ X). So XFCE4 + Compton is an even better example.

In comparison:

Start GNOME 3 @ Wayland and do the same (i.e. move a window around). You will see that the mouse cursor and window movement is in perfect sync and it feels much less laggy and rock solid.

The same is also true for running Wayland @ Weston.

With Wayland there's no tearing and not such a lag as mentioned above. With Wayland it feels as good as with Windows Vista/7/8/8.1/10 @ DWM.

If you want to try out the GNOME 3 @ Wayland session, you can boot up the latest Fedora Rawhide live session:

https://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/development/rawhide/Workstation/x86_64/iso/

If you want to try out Wayland @ Weston, you can boot up the latest RebeccaBlackOS live session:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/rebeccablackos/

Let's hope that will stop you from posting pointless comments such as those:

what's the point of wayland?
it's a usual tactic i observe in open source projects: tell all slightly-related projects that the other competing projects are better. they don't look at why or care about any technicalities. they just think they do it for the greater good, that people will get back to work and then make more useful software (i.e. support their crappy feature request), cause all that was needed for greatness is their friendly encouragement.

 :)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 07:37:18 AM by pq5190362 »

Offline pq5190362

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 08:08:38 AM »
If you want to try out the GNOME 3 @ Wayland session, you can boot up the latest Fedora Rawhide live session:

https://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/development/rawhide/Workstation/x86_64/iso/

If you want to try out Wayland @ Weston, you can boot up the latest RebeccaBlackOS live session:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/rebeccablackos/

Looks like there's no live ISO in the Rawhide folder at the moment for some reason, so you can also simply use the live ISO of the latest release version, since Wayland is already the default for Fedora since Fedora 25:

x86:
https://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/25/Workstation/i386/iso/
x86_64:
https://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/25/Workstation/x86_64/iso/

 ;)

Offline curaga

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2016, 09:01:33 AM »
Which topics?
Please do a search for "wayland".
Quote
Please name the size, ideally in comparision.
I am not going to do the work of making a Wayland iso. As you're the one interested in it, the onus is on you to do so. Without a comparable ISO there can't be byte-exact numbers.

Quote
Wayland and Weston can be run with software rendering since v1.1:

Yes. It still requires KMS, and more importantly, the *client* apps still require GL, ie mesa. There may be clients that can fall back to software rendering, but the majority will only support GL on Wayland.

Quote
Which dependencies?

KMS, libinput, mesa, others. I doubt you can get the lag-free experience using software rendering only.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline pq5190362

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Re: Wayland
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2016, 09:28:10 AM »
Please do a search for "wayland".

I did (before posting here). Both via the forum search as well as via a well known search engine. And the only threads that came up did not discuss those topics, but see for yourself:

http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,15228.0.html
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,16026.0.html
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,17361.0.html

 :)

So, that being said, I used this thread to ask for an update, since it seemed to be the first thread on this forum where someone asked for Wayland.

Without a comparable ISO there can't be byte-exact numbers.

So, you're arguing without knowing the numbers...

I do not know the numbers either. But I guess it could still be kept quite small when using Weston instead of using a full fledged desktop environment. To quote freedesktop.org: "The Weston compositor is a minimal and fast compositor and is suitable for many embedded and mobile use cases."

Yes. It still requires KMS

And how's that an issue? Intel/AMD/NVIDIA hardware, they are all supporting KMS, at least with the open source drivers.

the majority will only support GL on Wayland.

Which Intel/AMD/NVIDIA hardware supports out of the box when using the open source drivers as far as I know.

KMS, libinput, mesa, others. I doubt you can get the lag-free experience using software rendering only.

I doubt software rendering is required when using open source drivers on Intel/AMD/NVIDIA hardware, which is probably being used by the majority of users in the (almost) year 2017  :).