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Author Topic: Overlay initrd files using cat  (Read 38285 times)

Offline hiro

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2011, 04:08:30 AM »
I just saw that ahci is not a module. I have to use it with my SATA controller.

Offline tinypoodle

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2011, 05:31:16 AM »
Why not just try it? I'll see if I have the time later today.

Personally I would not have any reason to try, because whatever the differences in boot time possibly could be could never outweigh the priority of the criterium of memory usage.
Now if it is just for the hell of benchmarking per se, have fun   ;)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 06:03:41 AM by tinypoodle »
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Offline tinypoodle

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2011, 05:32:26 AM »
I just saw that ahci is not a module. I have to use it with my SATA controller.

Phew, that would explain why it did not ring a bell here   ;D
"Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster." Niklaus Wirth - A Plea for Lean Software (1995)

Offline gerald_clark

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2011, 07:47:41 AM »
Tinypoodle is right. .gz will consume more memory than loop mounted .tcz.

Some thoughts:
Instead of using .gz files to update mc to tc, they should be made into tcz extensions. ( Poodles suggestion )
The .gz loads before .tgz issue could be resolved with an xincludes.lst similar to onboot.lst if necessary.

This optimizes for memory at the expense of the flexibility of including the .gz files in the initrd definition in the boot loader.
Is this a concern? Do we need X loaded with the kernel?  I don't think so.  Tc-config should be able to handle loading X.


Offline hiro

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2011, 10:11:25 AM »
But you yourself said earlier:
Since wbar is a part of TC core, it needs to NOT be an onboot extension.

With that logic: Since Xorg is a part of TC core, it needs to NOT be an onboot extension.

And well, roberts seems to have some other reasons I guess.

I would like to hear any reason why e.g. X is release sensitive. What do you even mean with "release sensitive"?

Offline tinypoodle

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2011, 10:47:08 AM »
Tinypoodle is right. .gz will consume more memory than loop mounted .tcz.

Some thoughts:
Instead of using .gz files to update mc to tc, they should be made into tcz extensions. ( Poodles suggestion )
The .gz loads before .tgz issue could be resolved with an xincludes.lst similar to onboot.lst if necessary.

This optimizes for memory

The way you put it makes it somehow like a choice of the lesser evil; the one at the expense of the other.
Perhaps a way could be found so that needn't be so.

This may sound odd to some but...
What if taking one of those extensions in question and placing them into /opt/tce/optional into a gzip'ed cpio archive?

With the status quo, as an example, say if a user prefers the newer Xvesa.tcz version and one of the former default wm's (jwm.tcz, flwm.tcz [original]), it would not be anything uncommon to use "dynamic remastering" (see wiki) and load these extensions from an additional cpio archive.

In such a way the memory optimization provided by squashfs could be gained without being
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at the expense of the flexibility of including the .gz files in the initrd definition in the boot loader.
"Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster." Niklaus Wirth - A Plea for Lean Software (1995)

Offline gerald_clark

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2011, 11:23:04 AM »
I am merely presenting views and observations from several different angles in order to draw out discussion.
.gz and .tcz both have advantages and disadvantages.
I'm all for making MC the core with TC an add-on.
The question is how.
Currently, the ugrade from MC to TC is a mixture of .gz and .tcz.  I feel they should all be one or the other.
I personally don't like the wbar.tcz and flwm.tcz as the tce-update downgrades them for release candidates.
Perhaps the core X .tcz files should not be in optional so extension updates don't touch them.
This would allow Xlibs and Xprogs to be loop mounted .tcz files with the associated RAM savings.

Offline hiro

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2011, 12:15:57 PM »
What I like in poodles suggestion of creating a .gz of /opt extensions is that it would be compatible to my practice of putting Xorg in /opt
Only the user doesn't notice, because it's hidden in the .gz

Also for people wanting to remaster it serves as a great example for what opt might be for.

Offline roberts

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2011, 01:15:56 PM »
I am merely presenting views and observations from several different angles in order to draw out discussion.
.gz and .tcz both have advantages and disadvantages.
I'm all for making MC the core with TC an add-on.
The question is how.
Currently, the ugrade from MC to TC is a mixture of .gz and .tcz.  I feel they should all be one or the other.
This would heavily favor tcz for the additional option of mounting and update (zsync see below).

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I personally don't like the wbar.tcz and flwm.tcz as the tce-update downgrades them for release candidates.
IMHO Testing release candidates should not weight heavily in such decision.
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Perhaps the core X .tcz files should not be in optional so extension updates don't touch them.
This would allow Xlibs and Xprogs to be loop mounted .tcz files with the associated RAM savings.
I would think that the "check for updates"  process these tczs should be included. It would make for an easier system update. Again sans any consideration of release candidate testing.

tczs also have the update advantage of zsync which would make their download time much quicker to perform a system update.
10+ Years Contributing to Linux Open Source Projects.

Offline gerald_clark

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2011, 02:53:01 PM »
I agree with all those observations.

Offline curaga

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2011, 05:11:54 AM »
To clarify, zsync works with any kinds of files, but for tcz ones there's already automation.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline jerramy

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2011, 10:02:40 PM »
I had no problem converting Xlibs Xvesa and Xprogs from gz to tcz files, and loading them from /tce/optional using onboot.lst instead of /tce.  I don't quite get in what way Xlibs and Xvesa are release dependant, but I see how Xprogs is (it has Fluff, for instance).

One thing I noticed while poking through microcore.gz is that a fair part of it relates to getting networking up (drivers for various network adapters, for instance).  Would there be an issue with seperating out the network drivers into a tcz, and modprobing what's needed later?

Offline hiro

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2011, 04:14:54 AM »
Networking has to be included at least in one way or another, because internet connectivity is important for any other app you want to load with the appbrowser.

IIRC to use NFS tce dirs you need a working LAN before loading your extensions. I'm not sure if this is solvable by using the /opt/tce dir for these extensions.

Offline tinypoodle

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2011, 04:24:11 AM »
Networking has to be included at least in one way or another, because internet connectivity is important for any other app you want to load with the appbrowser.

IIRC to use NFS tce dirs you need a working LAN before loading your extensions. I'm not sure if this is solvable by using the /opt/tce dir for these extensions.

IMHO debatable if modular NIC support should be included in base, while at the same time the firmware (for all those NICs which require such) is missing.

Loading firmware for NIC and/or loading wireless modules and wireless tools - optionally as onboot - in /opt/tce with an additional cpio archive works fine at current.
"Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster." Niklaus Wirth - A Plea for Lean Software (1995)

Offline hiro

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Re: Overlay initrd files using cat
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2011, 04:36:14 AM »
Well, you have to draw a line if you don't want to include *all* these fancy networking devices, right?

If I wanted to strip the base down I wouldn't start with NIC support, because current way just works so great. Put in your cd and cable, download your wireless extensions and get going...
In this regard base is very much base already, there's not much left to throw out besides X (at least measured in bytes).