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Author Topic: It's great.  (Read 11026 times)

Offline netzen

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It's great.
« on: March 11, 2009, 08:07:56 PM »
Saw the announcement on distrowatch.

I am testing it on virtualbox.

Congratulations to all the team!

10MB, IT MAKE A LOT OF SENSE, REALLY DO.

Valter

Offline netzen

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2009, 02:17:46 AM »
Since the livecd and liveusb flash came to live I am dreaming about the ideia to "build" a system using several small systems as "components"...

I think Tiny Core Linux offer me a great base to start it...

I am not only talking about the small 10MB size...
It seems that you guys have good documentations and a nice design idea as well...

[explanation]
Let me try to explain what I have in mind.

This following diagram shows four different ways to "use" a OS (install):
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3109/2826407145_dcfed629b2_o.jpg

This next one I try to show that we can use Linux to "build" components of a system:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/2863272648_de3c1d1f24_o.jpg

In this sense we use several Linux systems as components to "build" a final system.

The size and design of Tiny Core seems to me that it may be the "building block" I was looking for...

[Old text]
Following I will post a text I had write last year about the idea.
I call the overall idea as: Freedom Of Computing.
Here is the old text.

<<<star>>>

[ A Idea for Marketing Linux on the desktop ]
I am currently writing some ideas about LiveLinuxes system, I think it is a great way to experience (and use) Linux.
Believing that there are lot's of interesting things we can achieve in this kind of usage of Linux, I decide to write some ideas to help promote the Linux usage using LiveUSB, LiveCDs, etc ...
I am actually working on it (will be Creative Commons or alike), and like to share with everybody. Some people may find it interesting and start to trying and promoting it too.

[ The presentation I'm working on ]
Follow are some slides that I will include on the presentation (PDF?) that I am working on now.

[ LiveUSB time to boot ]
This picture shows that LiveUSB are "as fast" as Hard Disc to boot.
It is much faster than LiveCD.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3257/2821127916_62000794fe_o.jpg

[ LiveUSB - cost to use Linux without partitioning or formatting HD ]
This picture shows how little it will cost to enjoy a Linux Live Experience.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3037/2842810082_5e7a0ee892_o.jpg

[ An idea for a Solid State x86 PC and how cheap it can be ]
This picture shows how simple, cheap and reliable a "solid stated Linux" can be.
It is possible today with need for any kind of special hardware or skills.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3150/2820288947_b5318a5e2c_b.jpg

[ LiveUSB as a way to marketing Linux for desktop that "co-exist with other OSes" ]
This picture is the "center" of the argument. It tries to show different kinds of OSes usage.
In the past, Linux tries a route that I call "captive install", because it result in all the hardware becoming "captive" to a specific OS that is installed on the hard disc.
The picture shows that we can think in a different way, avoiding all the negative aspects of a "captive install", instead, trying to offer a least radical choice that is a "Live Linux Experience", using the LiveUSB.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3109/2826407145_dcfed629b2_o.jpg

[ "Captive Install" ]
Here, "captive install" means the act of partitioning, formatting and installing one OS on the hard disc. Thus creating a situation that demands various steps and procedures to accomplish and various steps and procedures to reverse (uninstall). A full Linux native/Ext3 installation or a full Windows/NTFS installation becomes "captive" because it creates barriers to have another OS install on the same hard disc, so, in some sense it make the hardware "captive".

[ USBBased HomeNAS ]
This picture tries to ilustrate one home NAS server based on USBStick. Hard disks can be on/off on demand.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/2809531821_6a516a1335_o.jpg

[ Linux "ALIVE" ]
The following 2 pictures are just one possibility to build a "Linux Alive" enviroment, or "alive Linux station". It's just my arguments about how rich the possibilities can become when we think about cheap x86 hardware as a source of reliable "building blocks" for a rich computing enviroment, as opposed to x86 monolithic computers. As building blocks tends to be more reliable and scalable when performing functions and they are very cheap today, there is, I think, some future for this kind of possibilities.
By saying that it is "alive" I want to communicate the idea that it is supposed to stay ON all the time ...
I don't think that this idea is good for marketing usage, but it is more to developers to try to think about ...
pic 1
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/2863272644_105c43a6d4_o.jpg

pic 2
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/2863272648_de3c1d1f24_o.jpg

[ Google Trends about HD Install (captive install), LiveCD and LiveUSB ]
Finally, the following 3 pictures are images from Google Trends trying to show search trends for the following 3 expressions : "linux installation" (captive install), "Live CD" and "Live USB" (Sept/2008).

HD Install
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3033/2830646448_743ab521dc_o.jpg

Live CD
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3159/2829810163_c27d35c3bf_o.jpg

Live USB
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3172/2829810039_20d2a13197_o.jpg

[ Quick conclusion ]
Using the "LiveUSB Linux Experience" as a marketing for Linux on the desktop may be one good idea to facilitate the Linux adoption and first time experience.
All the arguments presented (in the slides) tries to show that there are reasons to believe this approach can have a relative good measure of success, and, IF IT IS right, then we may need to put more effort in developing, using and promoting the LiveUSB as a way to Linux.


>>>end<<<
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 11:58:25 PM by netzen »

Offline netzen

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2009, 02:24:32 AM »
The whole idea is simple but it may be difficult to understand it as whole.

I will be playing with TinyCore and will be trying to share more about...

The more I think, the more it make sense for me, and things like Tiny Core only tell me that I JUST MAKE A LOT OF SENSE.

Offline tobiaus

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2009, 09:35:37 AM »
some of the picture links have been modifed by the forum system and most are not viewable.

i suppose it is possible that tinycore could do those things, although i'm not sure it will do 100% of them yet. there is support for other filesystems, but tinycore will not boot from all of them directly, for example it will not boot from resierfs but it will read and write reiser.

the thing that's difficult for me is to understand what you're doing besides documenting many different ways linux can be used.

the pictures are nice, some of them are a little confusing, but they do illustrate that linux can be used in many different ways. obviously it would be nice to see you telling more people about tinycore, i hope they don't end up thinking it's more complicated than it is. the nice thing about options is that you don't have to know all of them to use some of them.

Offline jpeters

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2009, 12:28:28 PM »
Saw the announcement on distrowatch.

I am testing it on virtualbox.

Congratulations to all the team!

10MB, IT MAKE A LOT OF SENSE, REALLY DO.

Valter

AFAIK BIll Gates is still #1 in terms of net worth, yet Robert hasn't even made it into the top 10!  ...probably just needs a few marketing tweeks.

Offline tobiaus

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2009, 02:50:50 PM »
i would never call tc the perfect distro for everyone, i don't believe such a distro will ever exist. i do believe the closest things that exist to the perfect distros for everyone are:

1. ubuntu
2. tc
3. lfs

i've rated them in terms of learning curve. i'd rather use the one in the middle.

but why distrowatch does not reflect this, is probably because distrowatch has a certain audience, and if they list 200 distros, they're certainly not looking for the best distro for everyone. it's no surprise their ratings don't reflect that. in other words, #1 means something, but it doesn't necessarily mean #1. that goes for #10 ten times as much.

(now seriously, why isn't tc #1? come on, distrowatch!) heh.

Offline netzen

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2009, 11:59:27 PM »
some of the picture links have been modifed by the forum system and most are not viewable.

oops... my fault... I correct them.

sorry for that mistake.

Offline netzen

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Re: It's FAST and It's great.
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2009, 12:06:49 AM »
LiveUSB boot time is impressive fast.

Just takes 29 seconds on a Sempron LE 2GHz (single channel DDR) I use to test.

Here is a table comparing some HDD, LiveCD and LiveUSBs (all from the Sempron LE):



[high res]
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1438/3353325262_558dcd0c8e_o.jpg

Booting on a Athlon 64 3800 with dual channel takes ONLY 19 Seconds!
Which means that it can do even better with faster CPUs...

Offline curaga

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2009, 02:44:08 AM »
Please also try TC from a HD, it should be much faster than from usb :)
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline jpeters

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2009, 09:00:59 AM »
Please also try TC from a HD, it should be much faster than from usb :)

I'm guessing that the marketing message is about LIVE USB as the trend of the future. There's no mention of grub install. 

Very nice graphics.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 09:06:14 AM by jpeters »

Offline curaga

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 09:48:25 AM »
Ah, but there is Debian HD for comparison ;)
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline jpeters

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2009, 11:30:01 AM »
Ah, but there is Debian HD for comparison ;)

Right...HD will always be faster, so it  wouldn't make much sense other than to market how tcl USB can be faster than a typical HD installation.  I gathered from the "trend" analysis that people are gravitating towards USB, putting tc in the sweet spot. 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 11:39:02 AM by jpeters »

Offline mikshaw

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2009, 05:36:26 PM »
My impression of  curaga's first post was not about "debian HD", but "frugal HD", which is basically the same as USB install, only using a harddrive instead of USB (which can take a little while to detect during boot).  I have a frugal install of TC on harddrive, with a 600mhz processor, and it takes less time to boot than netzen's USB on Athlon 64.

I would suspect that if USB devices were to become more universal as far as hardware detection is concerned (rather than having to dynamically detect their location), applying USB to a live system will likely become much faster.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 05:38:05 PM by mikshaw »

Offline netzen

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 02:58:34 AM »
What follows is an unfair comparison of hard disk installation space usage and size, but it shows the potential of the TinyCore design.

[ just webmail & wikipedia ]
If I just want wikipedia or webmail, for example, I did a comparison between 2.2GByte Ubuntu 8.10 Hard Disk fresh install and a TinyCore 23.4MBytes (core + Opera) "fresh" install. It means that TinyCore uses 1% of the disk space.



(highres)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3587/3362558448_75b77d7e47_o.jpg


[ the basic core system ]
If the idea is to use TinyCore to "build" systems using a system as building block, then the comparison shows that TinyCore uses only 0.7% of disk space.



(highres)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3538/3361741851_06c8b10f95_o.jpg


The comparison is not fair but I did it to have the contrast idea that the design of the TinyCore may allows us to do things that all others (almost all) Linuxes do not allow.

The idea of having the core very tiny will enable a different kind of thinking about Linux. I will elaborate more about this later.

I like to mention Exupery's definition of "perfection".

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away."

Antoine de Saint-Exupery



Offline jpeters

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Re: It's great.
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 04:10:10 AM »
=
I like to mention Exupery's definition of "perfection".

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away."

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

..a guy who liked to keep his instrument panel uncluttered:  (hope that's not what got him killed...)

"He became one of the pioneers of international postal flight, in the days when aircraft had few instruments. Later he complained that those who flew the more advanced aircraft had become more like accountants than pilots"

« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 04:17:56 AM by jpeters »