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Author Topic: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?  (Read 5365 times)

Offline nick65go

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2021, 02:37:31 AM »
This topic was focused on FLTK. Not specifically to GTK3, or GTK2. Not even for GTK1. The two programs (gnumeric, netsurf) were merely just examples.

The (eventual) bugs for specific programs (like gnumeric not running in whatever type X -server) can be better solved in specific thread/subjects. Mixing too many different things (like locally viewing x86 appls from a remote x86_64 machine) in one subject will not help.

@CNK: yes, I agree to pure x86 apps communicating with X-server (preferable x86, like Xvesa) AND a simple ash shell or fltk interface, for comfort. And yes, DSL (damn small linux) is / was a gold mine for past time hardware. Today I can not buy new hardware without mandatory UEFI (because stupid vendors, bla bla). And for BIOS machine, then only second hand /refurbished (not my choice, I have already too many of them for my taste, accumulating dust because few failing parts - GPU coolers, broken keyboards, bad sectors HDD etc).

I prefer old appls, if they can keep up with the new (bloated) standard, forced on us by "common" people/colleagues/friends.

Offline Rich

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2021, 04:13:46 AM »
Hi Juanito
Pure64 extensions will not work with Xvesa?
It depends on whether he meant  Core64  or  Corepure64.  Xvesa will run on Core64. Xvesa will not run on Corepure64
since it's 32 bit only.

Offline CNK

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2021, 08:44:35 PM »
Hi Juanito
Pure64 extensions will not work with Xvesa?
It depends on whether he meant  Core64  or  Corepure64.  Xvesa will run on Core64. Xvesa will not run on Corepure64
since it's 32 bit only.

I obviously didn't make it clear enough that I'm talking about Xvesa running on one PC (PC1: DSL, x86), and Gnumeric/Netsurf running on another PC (PC2: CorePure64, x86_64). PC2 isn't running any X server, the Xorg extension isn't even loaded. See this guide for details about running remote X applications.

I am certain that PC1 is running Xvesa ("$ ps -A | grep Xvesa", also I launch it with some TinyX-specific arguments). It's probably a different version to the Tiny Core extension, but I don't know how to get a version number out of it. With an understanding of how X works (client programs communicating with an X server, either running on the same computer, or remotely over the network), it seems to me that this proves there must be a bug in the Xvesa/TinyX version used by Tiny Core, rather than in the client programs such as Gnumeric and Netsurf.

Anyway, if I find the time I'll burn a live CD for x86 Tiny Core 12 and observe the reported problems with Xvesa on Tiny Core myself. Maybe it depends on the configuration, such as resolution or colour depth, and actually an identical configuration of Xvesa in Tiny Core will work with those allegedly Xorg-only programs too. I'll start a new thread for this then, unless someone else does so first.

Offline curaga

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2021, 11:27:25 PM »
Well, at least the gtk2 theme issue is not technically a bug in tinyX. DSL tinyX did not support xrender. Ours does, but an earlier version. Some gtk2 themes use a gradient that is not a gradient, but a straight-color line, which is not allowed by the older xrender version. So technically that one is a bug in the gtk2 themes, or maybe an unstated requirement on a newer X server. You can search the forum for the exact error message, saying opcode RENDER etc etc.

I don't know if the mentioned apps are about that or something else, just mentioning.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline vinnie

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2021, 07:51:56 AM »
I honestly only have one complaint with the tools in fltk.
The font size.
Nowadays all monitors have high resolutions, lowering the resolution means having a less defined image (because lcd monitors seem to work well only with their maximum resolution).
So tinycore applications for my eyes are unreadable if I don't put my nose 20 cm from the monitor, which makes my visual conditions even worse.
When xfce was around I used alt+mousewhell to zoom, now I try to avoid graphics tools as much as possible.


Offline nick65go

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2021, 08:31:13 AM »
@vinnie: is your complaint ONLY about the "tools" which use FLTK ? So do you talk about TC control-panels (and its applets), and basic appls from default wbar (editor, mount, run) ?
Because FLTK is GUI tool-KIT, and ANY apps can choose its default font (for example: aterm, dillo, flaxPDF, flview, fluff, etc.).
I use just flwm (for desktop-menus) with 1600x900 on a laptop display of 17 inch. Even less resolution for TC in virtual-machines ;)

Is any "global font" setting for fltk preferences?

Offline vinnie

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2021, 04:55:28 PM »
Yes I am referring to tinycore tools, if you know a practical way to enlarge the fonts of their gui, please tell me  :-\

Offline curaga

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2021, 11:07:54 PM »
Use exactly half the resolution of your monitor, and the image will still be sharp. It's only non-integer scaling that gets blurry.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline vinnie

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2021, 02:06:30 PM »
Use exactly half the resolution of your monitor, and the image will still be sharp. It's only non-integer scaling that gets blurry.

I haven't:
Quote
$xrandr -d :0
HDMI1 connected 1920x1080+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 480mm x 270mm
   1920x1080     60.00*+  50.00    59.94 
   1920x1080i    60.00    50.00    59.94 
   1680x1050     59.88 
   1280x1024     75.02    60.02 
   1440x900      74.98    59.90 
   1280x720      60.00    50.00    59.94 
   1024x768      75.03    60.00 
   800x600       75.00    60.32 
   720x576       50.00 
   720x576i      50.00 
   720x480       60.00    59.94 
   720x480i      60.00    59.94 
   640x480       75.00    72.81    66.67    60.00    59.94 
   720x400       70.08 
HDMI2 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
HDMI3 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
VIRTUAL1 disconnected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)

The half of 1920x1080 is 960x540
« Last Edit: July 04, 2021, 02:09:37 PM by vinnie »

Offline curaga

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2021, 10:37:35 PM »
In that case, you need to add a custom modeline to your xorg.conf. (can also be added via the xrandr tool, to test at runtime).
Use the cvt tool to calculate the numbers for you.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline vinnie

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2021, 04:23:51 PM »
uhm? i am not really expert in these things, but the resolutions supported by a monitor are not already fixed in the monitor? or with this "custom modeline" i create a virtual resolution that being a bisection of the normal one then you can still see sharply?

Offline curaga

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2021, 10:36:15 PM »
For most monitors, the list is just for convenience, and you can use other resolutions too.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Xrandr
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline vinnie

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2021, 12:52:30 PM »
Ok, I tried it and it works as you say, the display still looks "sharp" to me looking at the rectangular edges.
Code: [Select]
gtf 960 540 60 #to know modeline
xrandr --newmode "960x540_60.00"  40.78  960 992 1088 1216  540 541 544 559  -HSync +Vsync
xrandr --addmode HDMI1  "960x540_60.00"
xrandr --output HDMI1 --mode "960x540_60.00" --panning 1920x1080
xrandr -s 1920x1080 #return back
I added panning which is not useful now (you have to reset ratpoison to make it fit) but it was to try to emulate xfce zoom with alt+scroll.
It's almost perfect except that the mouse focus is not followed in the center but you have to move to the edges, this slows down a bit but better than nothing.

Remaining on the theme I tried to do also the negative, for a single window I have not found anything (some say that you can try with xephyr or xnest and start a graphic server inside a window, but it seems too exaggerated) and among other things xcalib is not on tinycore, but  xrandr is capable to make it the same (even_if_I_don't_know_if_it's_an_intended_function_, negative values from - 1 invert the colors).

Here's how I binded it on ratpoison (I replaced all spaces with _ because of server error):
Code: [Select]
bind_less_exec_[[_$(xrandr_--verbose_--current_|_grep_HDMI1_-A5_|_tail_-n1_|_sed_'s/[^0-9.]*//g'|_cut_-d'.'_-f1)_==_1_]]_&&_xrandr_--output_HDMI1_--brightness_-1_||_xrandr_--output_HDMI1_--brightness_1

However, I have the impression that the result is not really good
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 12:58:31 PM by vinnie »

Offline vinnie

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2021, 08:23:58 PM »
I made the script that toggles the zoom on and off (simply toggles each time you launch).
I hope I've made it generic enough, but if there are things to correct, let me know.

Offline PDP-8

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Re: trend to abandon FLTK or Xvesa in tc32 ?
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2021, 01:14:29 AM »
Curaga - you are a super-genius!  I had NO IDEA you could do a non-standard modeline to a modern computer monitor.  Last time I touched modelines was back in the very early glass monitor days.  I made a custom modeline exactly half my native resolution, and holy cow, it rocks!  The core log was burning a hole in my forehead so I got rid of that. :)

Vinnie - you brought it all back.  Created a custom modeline which worked out to the same values you have, and created a file as root with an X11 monitor-section called 5-monitor.conf in /usr/local/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/5-monitor.conf.  Added that to the TC backup file list to make sure it stays.

I probably should make a writeup for others who like us, dig the fltk/flwm environment on modern high-res monitors, but their standard values are just too blurry no matter what.  Curaga just rocked my world.

Nick - back on topic - I think the main issue is that most consumers aren't really using computers to compute anything, but are just turning them into other things that need flash and sparkle.  Multimedia, gaming, and even web-browsing where the underlying code is 90% unnecessary graphics and 10% content - if that.

Sadly, as we know, the browser has gone from it's original intent into an o/s of it's own.  Nobody without corporate backing can keep up with all the javascript which is just taking over.  Sadly, I think this browser developer just reached a stage of burnout which many devs recognize:

https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-end-of-tenfourfox-and-what-ive.html

Spreadsheets?  I have never seen anyone use them for what they were designed for.  If anything, they were simply used as electronic graph-paper, or *maybe* sorting a row of data.  A bunch of horsepower and resources hogged just to make a lunch-seating chart. :)

Anyway, to each his own.  I keep it simple and yes, I do now run TC 64 bit on modern computers - even those that are secure-boot.  Details elsewhere here.

The thing that is overlooked is just how fast things are now.  We *can* go back to the days of simple sed/grep/awk and just smoke 'em compared to the old days.  Even huge text files are so easily crunched, that even flat text files which used to be laughed at compared to dedicated databases, can be pressed into service merely based on speed now.

All I need is a nice looking system for the eyes.  But it doesn't have to be total resource hogging eye-candy.  Save that for actual computing, not entertainment.

If I need a spreadsheet, I'll whip up the ol' "SC" spreadsheet.  Know what I mean?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 01:16:19 AM by PDP-8 »
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