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Author Topic: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?  (Read 2185 times)

Offline labeas

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Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« on: May 22, 2019, 03:07:04 PM »
If you bought a new laptop over the last few years, it would be a
UEFI/Win10-based system.

The one I bought 3 years ago needed a lot of pain/effort to find
how to handle the UEFI restriction and install linux from USBstiks.

Now this new UEFI/Win10 laptop does not follow the same sequence to
avoid the UEFI restriction; which together with grub2-multi, makes
for much problematic confusion.

grub2-multi.tcz seems to avoid the UEFI restriction, but given samples
fail with strange error messages [and dead kybrd].
Let's see if there's a <man grub2-multi> ?
-----------------------
Code: [Select]
-> cd /mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi
-> Rce-load -i grub2-multi.tcz
root@box:/home/tc# which grub2-multi
root@box:/home/tc# cd /mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi
root@box:/mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi# Rce-load -i grub2-multi.tcz
grub2-multi is already installed!
root@box:/mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi# which grub2-multi
root@box:/mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi#

???

    [EDIT]: Added code tags.  Rich
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 05:16:55 PM by Rich »

Offline Rich

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2019, 05:28:59 PM »
Hi labeas
...
Code: [Select]
-> cd /mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi
-> Rce-load -i grub2-multi.tcz
root@box:/home/tc# which grub2-multi
root@box:/home/tc# cd /mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi
root@box:/mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi# Rce-load -i grub2-multi.tcz
grub2-multi is already installed!
root@box:/mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi# which grub2-multi
root@box:/mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi#
The  which  command is used to find programs. There is no program called  grub2-multi  in  grub2-multi.tcz.

Quote
grub2-multi.tcz seems to avoid the UEFI restriction, but given samples
fail with strange error messages [and dead kybrd].
If you don't show the commands you typed and the error messages you received then no one can help you.

Offline mocore

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 12:59:47 AM »
Code: [Select]
...
root@box:/mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi# which grub2-multi
root@box:/mnt/sdb2/CRG/Grub2Multi/grub2multi#
The  which  command is used to find programs. There is no program called  grub2-multi  in  grub2-multi.tcz.

hi

to find the programs in the grub2-multi tcz extension
try
Code: [Select]
find /tmp/tcloop/grub2-multi/ type -f

Offline labeas

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2019, 07:16:10 PM »
>  to find the programs in the grub2-multi tcz extension
>   try
>      Code: [Select]
>         find /tmp/tcloop/grub2-multi/ type -f

? You mean:
 find /tmp/tcloop/grub2-multi/ -type f
---------------------
-> df == ...
/dev/loop17          476      476         0 100% /tmp/tcloop/links
/dev/loop18         1216     1216         0 100% /tmp/tcloop/mc
...
/dev/loop23            8        8         0 100% /tmp/tcloop/wifi
/dev/loop24           60       60         0 100% /tmp/tcloop/wily

-> find /tmp/tcloop/mc/ -type f | wc -l == 235
-> find /tmp/tcloop/wily/ -type f | wc -l == 1
 wily: the killer app from the 90s 2nd only to gpm !
-> find /tmp/tcloop/gpm/ -type f | wc -l == 14

You boys have failed to answer THE QUESTION which appears in
"Subject: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?"

If you're forced out of your comfort-zone:
  to USBstik-install tinycore to a new Win10 [of course] laptop,
  how do you handle the UEFI problem -- which seems to be never
  mentioned in TC documents ?

Offline Rich

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2019, 07:30:13 PM »
Hi labeas
... You boys have failed to answer THE QUESTION which appears in
"Subject: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?" ...
I don't understand what you are trying to ask.

Quote
If you're forced out of your comfort-zone:
  to USBstik-install tinycore to a new Win10 [of course] laptop,
  how do you handle the UEFI problem -- which seems to be never
  mentioned in TC documents ?
Installing to a USB stick is covered here:
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,19364.msg119228.html#msg119228

Offline PDP-8

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2019, 04:16:10 AM »
Ah, think I understand the actual question now. :)

Solution: Windows 10 hardware is never guaranteed to work with ALL linux distros.  But basically one does this:

1) Only run distros that have paid the tax for the microsoft approved uefi key.

2) OR, be sure to turn OFF "secure boot" and try again.

3) Make sure you have burnt the iso in a UEFI compatible format.  That is, there must be a small vfat uefi boot partition, followed by another partition with the filesystem format of your choice.

You can run the distribution's own tools to make this, or follow instructions on how to do so manually.

Or, you can grab a burning tool for Windows like RUFUS, use the GPT (uefi only) format for burning and try that.  Turn secure boot off recommended.

Cross fingers - some Windows 10 laptops are harder than others to get running.  Seek advice and reviews from other Linux users *before* purchase.

Ever try running Crux on a 2005-era Apple G5 Imac, with a so-called "open boot" system?  Same kind of deal.  You have to put some work into it - nothing is plug-n-play guaranteed.  That's part of the fun.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 04:21:09 AM by PDP-8 »
That's a UNIX book! - cool  -- Garth

Offline labeas

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2019, 01:01:47 AM »
I'm writing from W10; so can't see [to just paste my evidence].

PDP-8 wrote:-
>  <or disable secure boot>

AFAIR the <Aptio 2015> laptop allowed toggling secure-boot
 able/disable.
I failed to find such facilities on this <Aptio 2018>.
But our <senior researcher> reports that the supplier admits
that secure-boot/lock-out is not [yet] implemented.
So mere F7 after power-up, shows the list of all USBs plugged.
I guess the fact that syslinux-based USBstik of <Aptio15 box>
 fails to boot: is because it needs UEFI ability?
 

Offline PDP-8

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2019, 04:01:11 AM »
I have just one of my machines that doesn't like TC64 and syslinux.  So I used grub 2.x and that worked.

I see you've tried it before and it didn't work out so well?  I think we're all tapped out on ideas since we're not sitting at your keyboard and noticing that one variable that gets missed.

As a diagnostic aid, I can tell you that the YUMI-UEFI-0.0.16.exe version will properly burn TCpure64 to a stick.  If you want persistence, then make tce/optional directories in the root of the stick.  Add set gfxpayload=1920x1080x24 (or whatever your native res is) to the proper grub file.   I'll stop at this point since YUMI support is a different thread.  It doesn't have to look pretty at this point, but just boot properly.

Look for the UEFI specific version:
https://www.pendrivelinux.com/yumi-multiboot-usb-creator/

If that works, then like me, you know you can take off the training-wheels and follow Juanito's excellent guide about grub burning and figure out where you may have gone wrong.

Other diagnostics include - can you boot a recent Knoppix?  Can you boot Porteus 4.0?  If you can, there is no reason you can't boot TCpure64, and may give you hints on where to look for what appears to be a corner-case (like my one weird box).
.


« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 04:05:40 AM by PDP-8 »
That's a UNIX book! - cool  -- Garth

Offline labeas

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2019, 07:55:38 AM »
Thanks, I've filed that..
It's very unsatisfactory to just suck-it-and-see without UNDERSTNDING
the underlying theory; since I started IT from discrete transistor
bistables and hex-coding 8-bit uprocs.

==crg


Offline PDP-8

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2019, 02:16:52 PM »
I can relate.  As frustrating as it might seem, using diagnostic techniques such as these can help you find that one variable that seems to be missing or newly introduced in your environment.

I've been there - bang head against wall, get ego bruised, and then succumb to what shouldn't matter - and then there it is!

Trust me, you'll feel better. :)
That's a UNIX book! - cool  -- Garth

Offline labeas

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2019, 05:58:53 AM »
Since writer:PDP-8 has shown awareness of the problem we face:
>1) Only run distros that have paid the tax for the microsoft approved uefi key.
>2) OR, be sure to turn OFF "secure boot" and try again.
>3) Make sure you have burnt the iso in a UEFI compatible format.  That is, ...
 does he accept that new/cheap laptops will have problems booting linux?
---
Rather than seek <propriety> solutions, I advocate general/universal weapons:
UEFI <government> has made available the UEFIshell, which seems very powerfull,
but needs competent-familiarisation, rather that the M$pook attitude:
"what can I get, which someone ELSE has already made to solve this problem".
It's better to know the <algorithm> to multiply ANY 2 integers, than the
result of some currently usefull products.
---
 Have any Tinycore readers, who will share/expand our knowledge:
  used/tested the UEFI-shell?
I'll write [with inevitable typos, since can't yet see how to
copy/paste from UEFI-shell results] my efforts to leverage UEFIsh's power;
ie. to really see into the guts of OS/kernel...drivers, <pciBus>...
First I tried to <extract basic *nix cmnds> like: ls, pwd, cd, df ...
==> replies to colaborators will follow.


Offline vinceASPECT

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2019, 10:17:52 AM »
HEllo there again all,

Yes.   BIOS is  a quite  uncompromising OPERATING SYSTEM.

The  vendor  will determine  which other vendor(s)  hardware  specific
can interface with IT  and the top level user  OS.

BIOS is  universal in some  senses.....but perhaps not interchangable
above preliminary levels. 

FOr example,  network Cards have BIOS......and so do Router(s).    and other
hardware.   Vendor

Infact  a lot of existing hardware contain  FULL PC's inside them.  Sometimes several
FULL PC's  are inside  a part of hardware....such a flat panel screens.....and
cisco  routers  . 
Those PC's  are dedicated PC computers.

THey are systems on chip....PC  computers.  They run dedicated operating systems
That  exist  pertaining  to SLIGHT USER alteration of a few  attributes......otherwise all closed and reliable.   

The  BIOS  can be updated  and it's not unusual  for the hardware vendor  to offer
that update for free.

In respect  of  recent  Laptops.  I know the last 100 milllion Laptops from AMD
American Micro Devices........all those Laptops have DUAL BOOT bios for both
Android and The Msoft.  THis requires huge licensing laws and corps need to be very
careful  what information they divulge.

UEIF   and  modern  BIOS  still are  constrained to the hardware vendor(s) such as Msoft with the x86 archictecture who have a 200 line code injection. This is the legal and sizable  (tiny code)  that has made Msoft the monster  $$$ that it is.
Msoft have the Cart before the horse.....with IBM on the x86 licensing which was signed for all global x86 manufactured PC's.

The boot process is propreetory and owned by Msoft Via Ibm and the x86 architecture license.   This is WHY when you buy computers  they have the Microsoft logos and symbols advertised on the the machines. 

This license, however, has moved in time....with AMD  having more leverage due to them
having a 50 to 50 clause with INTEL with all global  x86 manufactured computer machines ....since they  often have an AMD   GPU next to the INTEL CPU......

see above (for Why AMD are able )  to release the 100 million Laptops that i refer to.

One of the biggest deals on earth.....in corporate tech terms....and still exists.(ibm/Msoft)

You  are  always  able to  Legally file against Msoft for such clauses.  Many DO and win.

thx

Vin












Offline vinceASPECT

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2019, 11:21:04 AM »
addendum

Advanced Micro Devices     AMD

Offline GNUser

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2019, 12:23:37 PM »
My daily driver is a ThinkPad T400 laptop with Libreboot (libre version of Coreboot) and Tiny Core Pure64 10.1 -- everything works perfectly (video, sound, storage, wifi). There are no BIOS-related issues whatsoever that I can tell.

I just wanted to provide this report in case any TC user is contemplating Libreboot. With Libreboot, you can say good-bye to all BIOS/UEFI nonsense.

BTW it's a pain to install Libreboot, but you can buy refurbished ThinkPads with Libreboot pre-installed (and BIOS/Intel "Management Engine" disabled). There are several outfits that offer such laptops (Vikings, Technoethical, Minifree, and Libiquity come to mind).

Just my $0.02

Offline vinceASPECT

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Re: Why TC-fora no BIOS/UEFI queries?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2019, 01:58:55 PM »
SIr  GNU


Thankyou for the comment  (reply).


THat is great that your systems are functioning  while very unique.

Some time....i once heard of "bios tatoos"  as the sort of Vendor logo
that appears on boot screens...... and i worked in a place where we removed
those tatoos.

Sometimes  BIOS  battery's   are starved and this can be tricky with Laptops.
since they may refuse to boot up.


That is a good  set up.

Onward then Sir...........there......if your system works......then great.


Here i won't mess with stuff i know little about.   The closest i have got to any learning is the hardest of hard commands....it stops any UEFI bios Msoft machine from booting up.

but that isn't  right.  Then one is left with hardware that won't work or give the world wide web......

Sir, i hope your machine gets onto the world wide web......

There are some good UK outlets.

https://[Deleted, not relevant to this thread.]
(they are very very good........traded as Morgan Computers....earlier.

Thx

PS.......Sophie Wilson.   (invented the ARM cpu)........interesting.

V

    [EDIT]: Link removed.  Rich
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 02:15:05 PM by Rich »