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Author Topic: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?  (Read 18288 times)

Offline vinnie

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2013, 05:00:22 AM »
@bmarkus
That the package management is sufficient for use but could be better, I think that the best management I've seen is the one used in the arch aur (script-based), allows you to browse/update/edit software better.

Regarding the missed support, I'm not complaining because my English is very bad and I think that is not too pleasant reply to me, but very often I have not had replies to my messages.

Offline hiro

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2013, 12:18:14 PM »
The best management is no management.
tinycore doesn't put on huge layers of duct tape just to then have to rip it off again and get caught up in the sticky leftovers.

Offline bmarkus

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2013, 12:23:38 PM »
@bmarkus
That the package management is sufficient for use but could be better, I think that the best management I've seen is the one used in the arch aur (script-based), allows you to browse/update/edit software better.

Everything can be better.

Edit software via package management? How do you mean?
Béla
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Offline vinnie

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2013, 04:13:16 PM »
@hiro I do not agree, good organization allow to better solve the problems, let's take a stupid example (also valid to answer bmarkus):

Every time we update the kernel there is the usual problem with programs that lose compatibility (and this round it is exacerbated by the loss of scm).
This is normal administration, but if we had a unified management of the scripts we could better handle the issue.

Let's take a packet at random from aur: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/vboxgtk/
People can easily vote for it, comment on it, observe the code, download the source, Read the comments, you'll notice several reports.

Simplify access to this information could mean increasing the participation of people.
Also maintain a repository of scripts is to have few limitations of space (and I remember we had this problem in the past) and would also increase the safety of the packages (since the compilation would be just in time, with the code under the eyes).

If we wanted to exaggerate, we could even think to automate the reconstruction of critical packages every time we update a kernel or when a new dependency is updated.
We could make sure that meo have the latest minor version of firefox in complete autonomy, the minute after its release (just kidding but it is a plausible perspective, I hope that meo do not get angry :P )

However, these are not things that I claim, but I'm still stuck to the fourth version of tinycore for missing application and I do not have the ability to solve alone.

Do not take it as a protest, I still consider tinycore as a great gift to the community, and just know that I am sorry to observe the presence of these problems.

Offline Misalf

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2013, 05:25:17 PM »
Two cents: Editing a certain software's behavior has never been so easy for me as it is when using Tiny Core.

Well, to be able to create personal extensions, I always have to look up on the net for correct commands or file/folder access rights, but thats linux - or - thats 'computing'. While tiny core beeing a 'small' distro (less people), it's naturally more unlikely that certain requests can get deepy investigeted because the goal is to create a Tiny base that does work - We, the users have to add the cany if we want but we don't really 'need' to. The rest is still up to us. For me it seems people are getting much help on the forum even if they try to do something 'special'. It's always a hassle for me - competing with computers - with tiny core I'm able to make apps to work as I say whithout having to touch the real system (buried files which might be waste in the future),
Download a copy and keep it handy: Core book ;)

Offline curaga

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2013, 11:56:00 PM »
@vinnie

Automatic compilation wouldn't solve the manpower issue - even if the app compiles, it still needs testing before it can be had there. Mere "does it start" isn't enough really.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline vinnie

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2013, 01:40:54 AM »
The fact that they should be tested does not deny that need to be rebuilt :P

Offline hiro

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2013, 04:16:46 AM »
@vinnie: It's much easier to learn how to compile and create a package than to create, maintain, use, understand and workaround errors in an automated build system.

Offline hiro

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2013, 04:21:11 AM »
> We could make sure that meo have the latest minor version of firefox in complete autonomy, the minute after its release (just kidding but it is a plausible perspective, I hope that meo do not get angry  )

100% autonomy is only useful when the automation works perfectly stable, which it never does. Else why would you need to update at all?

Offline vinnie

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2013, 12:02:14 PM »
I think you're too radicalizing your statements.
No automatic system is 100% perfect, not for this you do not tend to automate things.

I used arch before tinycore and I assure you that I was not able to create any kind of packages or compile source, anyway I used aur to install software.
Nothing is perfect, arch was too bleding edge and stopped working after some time (after some updates).

Subsequently with tinycore and with a lot of efforts I learned how to compile and to package (I started with circuslinux).
I have also managed to create some (ugly) script cloning here, there and everywhere,
I copied a lot from the jason script, but very often when i not knowing well what to do, I copied from aur script.

So what you say is true, the approach of "basic" is better to learn, however automate things is the next step.
I remember back when the .tce packages had not automatic resolving dependencies, someone at the time argued that it was easier to specify all dependencies by hand,
then we know how things went.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 12:06:48 PM by vinnie »

Offline hiro

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2013, 05:11:32 AM »
If we followed your logic and automated more stuff in tinycore then the system would get too complex (like arch) and other people wouldn't be able to learn from the simplicity in tinycore the way you did.

I still prefer manual dependencies. It forces you to keep it small and simple. In the beginning many packages on tinycore got linked only against the bare minimum to get a usefull "app". Now often when I install a program to do something simple I get loads of libraries auto-installed together with it. Sometimes needed because of the package creator's decision, sometimes by accident, sometimes not needed at all.

An example: look at mpd.tcz dependencies, something I wanted to use on a 64MB RAM embedded audio system. Of course I had to recompile it. And I blame the ease of automatic package management.

Code: [Select]
mpd.tcz
   libavahi.tcz
      gtk2.tcz
         atk.tcz
            glib2.tcz
               libffi.tcz
            libffi.tcz
         cairo.tcz
            pixman.tcz
            fontconfig.tcz
               expat2.tcz
         pango.tcz
            glib2.tcz
               libffi.tcz
            Xorg-7.6-lib.tcz
            libxcb.tcz
         gdk-pixbuf2.tcz
            glib2.tcz
               libffi.tcz
            graphics-libs-1.tcz
         shared-mime-info.tcz
            glib2.tcz
               libffi.tcz
            libxml2.tcz
               liblzma.tcz
         Xlibs.tcz
      dbus.tcz
         expat2.tcz
      gcc_libs.tcz
   bzip2-lib.tcz
   libffado.tcz
      expat2.tcz
      libiec61883.tcz
      libraw1394.tcz
         firewire-3.0.21-tinycore.tcz
            v4l-dvb-3.0.21-tinycore.tcz
               i2c-3.0.21-tinycore.tcz
      libxml++.tcz
         libxml2.tcz
            liblzma.tcz
         glibmm.tcz
            libsigc++.tcz
            glib2.tcz
               libffi.tcz
      libxml2.tcz
         liblzma.tcz
      glibmm.tcz
         libsigc++.tcz
         glib2.tcz
            libffi.tcz
      glib2.tcz
         libffi.tcz
      libsigc++.tcz
   faad.tcz
   libmpcdec.tcz
   tcp_wrappers.tcz
   sqlite3.tcz
   libcdio.tcz
      ncurses.tcz
         ncurses-common.tcz
   zziplib.tcz
   curl.tcz
      libssh2.tcz
         libssl-0.9.8.tcz
      libidn.tcz
         libiconv.tcz
   libavformat52.tcz
      libavcodec52.tcz
         libavutil50.tcz
         libvorbis.tcz
            libogg.tcz
         libvpx0.tcz
         libogg.tcz
   libmms.tcz
   libid3tag.tcz
   flac.tcz
   audiofile.tcz
   libmikmod.tcz
   libmodplug.tcz
   libgme-svn.tcz
   sidplay2-lib.tcz
   fluidsynth.tcz
      glib2.tcz
         libffi.tcz
      flac.tcz
      jack-lib.tcz
      libasound.tcz
      libogg.tcz
      libsndfile.tcz
         flac.tcz
         libvorbis.tcz
            libogg.tcz
      libvorbis.tcz
         libogg.tcz
      ncurses.tcz
         ncurses-common.tcz
      readline.tcz
         ncurses.tcz
            ncurses-common.tcz
   wildmidi.tcz
      libasound.tcz
   wavpack.tcz
      libiconv.tcz
   libmad.tcz
   mpg123.tcz
      libltdl.tcz
   libcue.tcz
   lame.tcz
      ncurses.tcz
         ncurses-common.tcz
   twolame.tcz
      libsndfile.tcz
         flac.tcz
         libvorbis.tcz
            libogg.tcz
      flac.tcz
      libvorbis.tcz
         libogg.tcz
      libogg.tcz
   libopenal.tcz
   libpulseaudio.tcz
      Xorg-7.6-lib.tcz
      dbus.tcz
         expat2.tcz
      glib2.tcz
         libffi.tcz
      libltdl.tcz
      libsamplerate.tcz
         libsndfile.tcz
            flac.tcz
            libvorbis.tcz
               libogg.tcz
      speex.tcz
         libogg.tcz
      libx11-xcb.tcz
         libxcb.tcz
      libxcb-util.tcz
         libxcb.tcz
      libavahi.tcz
         gtk2.tcz
            atk.tcz
               glib2.tcz
                  libffi.tcz
               libffi.tcz
            cairo.tcz
               pixman.tcz
               fontconfig.tcz
                  expat2.tcz
            pango.tcz
               glib2.tcz
                  libffi.tcz
               Xorg-7.6-lib.tcz
               libxcb.tcz
            gdk-pixbuf2.tcz
               glib2.tcz
                  libffi.tcz
               graphics-libs-1.tcz
            shared-mime-info.tcz
               glib2.tcz
                  libffi.tcz
               libxml2.tcz
                  liblzma.tcz
            Xlibs.tcz
         dbus.tcz
            expat2.tcz
         gcc_libs.tcz
      json-c.tcz
      liborc.tcz
   libshout.tcz
      libtheora.tcz
         libogg.tcz
      libvorbis.tcz
         libogg.tcz
      libogg.tcz
   libiec61883.tcz
   libraw1394.tcz
      firewire-3.0.21-tinycore.tcz
         v4l-dvb-3.0.21-tinycore.tcz
            i2c-3.0.21-tinycore.tcz
   libxml++.tcz
      libxml2.tcz
         liblzma.tcz
      glibmm.tcz
         libsigc++.tcz
         glib2.tcz
            libffi.tcz
And here are my mpd dependencies. Sorry, the dependency-dependencies are not displayed, cause I created this extension myself and it's not up on any tinycore servers (perhaps I forgot to submit it back then?):

Code: [Select]
vorbis-tools.tcz
faad.tcz
libmpcdec.tcz
libmms.tcz
glib2.tcz
libid3tag.tcz
libmad.tcz
audiofile.tcz
wavpack.tcz
mpg123.tcz
libcue.tcz
lame.tcz
libsamplerate.tcz

Offline hiro

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2013, 05:14:11 AM »
And yes, I think tinycore itself is already quite radical (some might say *too* radical). But I'm grateful for having an alternative to all the radically complex software.

Offline AmatCoder

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2013, 07:48:45 AM »
I'm agree with Vinnie.

Another good example is the libpng update issue.
If Tinycore had a standardized build system then to recompile all packages to link new libpng would be trivial.
Sadly some extensions could be lost in 5.x because nobody (excluding creator - maybe missing) knows how it was compiled for TinyCore.

(Also: patches are needed to compile some packages. Information about which patches have been applied is no retained.)

Offline jls

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2013, 07:54:38 AM »
dCore user

Offline AmatCoder

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Re: why do you leave TinyCoreLinux and where do u go after?
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2013, 08:09:25 AM »
But it is not official...
I am speaking about an official build system (this means: all extensions must be made mandatorily with it).