Tiny Core Linux

General TC => General TC Talk => Topic started by: jconnor on March 18, 2011, 01:05:33 PM

Title: Wayland
Post by: jconnor on March 18, 2011, 01:05:33 PM
I have watched some of the videos on Wayland.  Looks pretty cool.  Is that something that could eventually be used with TC?
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: curaga on March 18, 2011, 11:17:25 PM
Yes. It requires a KMS console and a recent mesa, so it might not run right now, but nothing's stopping it from running in the future.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 18, 2016, 10:58:44 AM
Any update on Wayland?

The GNOME 3 Wayland session is really impressive, very smooth tear-free experience with much less lag than X11.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: curaga on December 19, 2016, 02:29:04 AM
As per other topics, Wayland's size, runnable hw and dependencies preclude it from being included in the base. It does not exist as an extension currently since nobody was interested in making some - if you'd like to run it, please create the extensions.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Juanito on December 19, 2016, 03:12:43 AM
'looks like santa came early this year - wayland posted to x86 and x86_64 repos
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 21, 2016, 04:00:14 AM
As per other topics

Which topics?

Wayland's size

Please name the size, ideally in comparision.

runnable hw

Wayland and Weston can be run with software rendering since v1.1:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI4MTE
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM0Njg

and dependencies

Which dependencies?

'looks like santa came early this year - wayland posted to x86 and x86_64 repos

Thanks a lot "Santa"  ;D :D :P ;).

Now we're still missing a compositor though, such as Weston for example:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/wayland#Requirements

 ;)

Could you possibly also add Weston (https://cgit.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/) to the repo and upgrade gtk3.tcz to the latest version, since a current version of GTK+ 3 is required for Wayland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)#Toolkit_support

?
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Juanito on December 21, 2016, 04:40:03 AM
wayland becomes a dep of libEGL, which means libEGL extension grows in size (not such a big deal) and that X users get +/- 100kb of  wayland extension they can't use.

The gtk3 extension is +/- current at 3.22.0 and it will compile against wayland. Compiling mutter with wayland support fails for me.

I suspect there will be a problem with libinput (required by wayland), the latest versions of this use the udev hwdb, which is not present in tinycore.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 21, 2016, 05:00:04 AM
The gtk3 extension is +/- current at 3.22.0

Not in the x86 repo, which is at 3.14:

http://repo.tinycorelinux.net/7.x/x86/tcz/gtk3.tcz.info

and it will compile against wayland. Compiling mutter with wayland support fails for me.

I suspect there will be a problem with libinput (required by wayland), the latest versions of this use the udev hwdb, which is not present in tinycore.

See:

Quote from: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/systemd/gnome/mutter.html

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/systemd/gnome/mutter.html

Mutter Dependencies
Required
Clutter-1.26.0, gnome-desktop-3.22.0, libxkbcommon-0.7.0, UPower-0.99.4, and Zenity-3.22.0

Recommended
gobject-introspection-1.50.0, libcanberra-0.30, and startup-notification-0.12

Recommended (Required to build the Wayland compositor)
libinput-1.5.3, Wayland-1.12.0, wayland-protocols-1.7, and Xorg-Server-1.19.0 (with Xwayland). Additionally, Cogl-1.22.2, Clutter-1.26.0 and GTK+-3.22.4 need to be built with Wayland support.

 ;)
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Juanito on December 21, 2016, 05:47:02 AM
weston will run in a window under X without Xwayland and the weston terminal accepts keyboard and mouse input so perhaps the hwdb is not so vital after all.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 21, 2016, 05:57:30 AM
Here's also a guide for Weston:

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/systemd/general/weston.html

 ;)
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: hiro on December 21, 2016, 06:43:40 AM
Any update on Wayland?

The GNOME 3 Wayland session is really impressive, very smooth tear-free experience with much less lag than X11.

please show me how to introduce that "lag" visibly so i can reproduce this.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 21, 2016, 07:28:52 AM
The GNOME 3 Wayland session is really impressive, very smooth tear-free experience with much less lag than X11.
please show me how to introduce that "lag" visibly so i can reproduce this.

Easy:

Start GNOME 3 @ X (with Mutter as the hardware accelerated compositing window manager incl. Vsync). Now open a window and place the mouse cursor on the window titlebar and click and hold the left mouse button and move the mouse around to move the window around. As you can see, the mouse cursor is faster than the window movement, i.e. there's some kind of input/rendering/drawing lag.

This will also be true and in many cases even worse than GNOME 3 with other X shells using compositing window managers. Take XFCE4 + Compton for example. Running XFCE4 with Compton results in proper VSync (unlike xfwm4). However, there's some huge input lag. In this case, the window movement is even much slower than the mouse cursor (compared to GNOME 3 @ X). So XFCE4 + Compton is an even better example.

In comparison:

Start GNOME 3 @ Wayland and do the same (i.e. move a window around). You will see that the mouse cursor and window movement is in perfect sync and it feels much less laggy and rock solid.

The same is also true for running Wayland @ Weston.

With Wayland there's no tearing and not such a lag as mentioned above. With Wayland it feels as good as with Windows Vista/7/8/8.1/10 @ DWM.

If you want to try out the GNOME 3 @ Wayland session, you can boot up the latest Fedora Rawhide live session:

https://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/development/rawhide/Workstation/x86_64/iso/

If you want to try out Wayland @ Weston, you can boot up the latest RebeccaBlackOS live session:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/rebeccablackos/

Let's hope that will stop you from posting pointless comments such as those:

what's the point of wayland?
it's a usual tactic i observe in open source projects: tell all slightly-related projects that the other competing projects are better. they don't look at why or care about any technicalities. they just think they do it for the greater good, that people will get back to work and then make more useful software (i.e. support their crappy feature request), cause all that was needed for greatness is their friendly encouragement.

 :)
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 21, 2016, 08:08:38 AM
If you want to try out the GNOME 3 @ Wayland session, you can boot up the latest Fedora Rawhide live session:

https://dl.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/development/rawhide/Workstation/x86_64/iso/

If you want to try out Wayland @ Weston, you can boot up the latest RebeccaBlackOS live session:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/rebeccablackos/

Looks like there's no live ISO in the Rawhide folder at the moment for some reason, so you can also simply use the live ISO of the latest release version, since Wayland is already the default for Fedora since Fedora 25 (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Fedora-25-Released):

x86:
https://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/25/Workstation/i386/iso/
x86_64:
https://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/fedora/linux/releases/25/Workstation/x86_64/iso/

 ;)
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: curaga on December 21, 2016, 09:01:33 AM
Which topics?
Please do a search for "wayland".
Quote
Please name the size, ideally in comparision.
I am not going to do the work of making a Wayland iso. As you're the one interested in it, the onus is on you to do so. Without a comparable ISO there can't be byte-exact numbers.

Quote
Wayland and Weston can be run with software rendering since v1.1:

Yes. It still requires KMS, and more importantly, the *client* apps still require GL, ie mesa. There may be clients that can fall back to software rendering, but the majority will only support GL on Wayland.

Quote
Which dependencies?

KMS, libinput, mesa, others. I doubt you can get the lag-free experience using software rendering only.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 21, 2016, 09:28:10 AM
Please do a search for "wayland".

I did (before posting here). Both via the forum search as well as via a well known search engine. And the only threads that came up did not discuss those topics, but see for yourself:

http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,15228.0.html
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,16026.0.html
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,17361.0.html

 :)

So, that being said, I used this thread to ask for an update, since it seemed to be the first thread on this forum where someone asked for Wayland.

Without a comparable ISO there can't be byte-exact numbers.

So, you're arguing without knowing the numbers...

I do not know the numbers either. But I guess it could still be kept quite small when using Weston instead of using a full fledged desktop environment. To quote freedesktop.org: "The Weston compositor is a minimal and fast compositor and is suitable for many embedded and mobile use cases." (https://wayland.freedesktop.org/)

Yes. It still requires KMS

And how's that an issue? Intel/AMD/NVIDIA hardware, they are all supporting KMS, at least with the open source drivers.

the majority will only support GL on Wayland.

Which Intel/AMD/NVIDIA hardware supports out of the box when using the open source drivers as far as I know.

KMS, libinput, mesa, others. I doubt you can get the lag-free experience using software rendering only.

I doubt software rendering is required when using open source drivers on Intel/AMD/NVIDIA hardware, which is probably being used by the majority of users in the (almost) year 2017  :).
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: hiro on December 21, 2016, 11:40:14 AM
pq: sorry for stealing you all this time you needed to insult me.

i'm trying to question my opinion, which is: wayland brings no advantage to my setup.

I didn't have noticeable lag when I moved windows in windows 95, and i don't have any annoying lag in fl_topside either.

If it needs gnome3 to replicate or "compositing window managers" then it seems I'm safe for now, cause i'm not aware of any such things existing in my computer.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: hiro on December 21, 2016, 11:47:04 AM
To quote freedesktop.org: "The Weston compositor is a minimal and fast compositor and is suitable for many embedded and mobile use cases." (https://wayland.freedesktop.org/)

It seems to me that you, like most freedesktop related projects don't understand the definition of minimal.
You not understanding the benefit of software rendering also suggests you have no idea what tinycorelinux minimalism is about.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 21, 2016, 12:01:55 PM
I didn't have noticeable lag when I moved windows in windows 95

But you had tearing. Lots of it. And repainting artifacts. Lots of them. Which is true for all versions of Windows prior to Windows Vista. Windows Vista introduced DWM (Desktop Window Manager), which is a compositing window manager, which got rid of all that mess which is tearing and repainting artifacts, but read for yourself:

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/greg_schechter/2006/03/19/dwms-use-of-directx-gpus-and-hardware-acceleration/
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff684179(v=vs.85).aspx

and i don't have any annoying lag in fl_topside either.

But you have tearing. See above.

If it needs gnome3 to replicate

It does not need GNOME 3 (which comes with Mutter, which is a compositing window manager). And, as already mentioned, Mutter @ X is actually not that bad in this regard. There are other X compositors which are worse.

With Wayland compositors (such as Mutter @ Wayland or Weston), those issues are gone.

or "compositing window managers" then it seems I'm safe for now, cause i'm not aware of any such things existing in my computer.

You almost certainly will experience screen tearing and repainting artifacts when you're not using a compositor. In theory, it would be possible to get a tear free experience with certain DDXs, such as xf86-video-intel and xf86-video-ati/xf86-video-amdgpu, since they have a "TearFree" option, but in practice, that doesn't work so well...

By the way, here's an interesting thread about the whole topic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5f4ul3/does_wayland_actually_eliminate_tearing/daifis8/

 ;)
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: nitram on December 21, 2016, 04:07:38 PM
Wayland is interesting, i've never used it, on paper exciting. Does Wayland only run Gnome, KDE or Weston. What about all the great WMs, they need xwayland added to the mix? That's my understanding, if so 'an X server running on top of wayland' sounds bloated and complicated. There are probably lots of old Tiny Core systems with software rendering only, please don't exclude these systems at the expense of something less proven, still in active development.

Great Wayland made it into *Core, default probably not for many years anyway. FWIW old hardware with the right software in present TC does not lag or tear. Running modern Gnome would cripple this hardware, it's easier to avoid the bloat than figure out a workaround.

pq5190362 If you're serious then provide numbers and a test ISO, as already suggested. To be default it needs to work across all hardware and provide the same functionality or better than presently offered. Creating a  TC respin is an alternative, develop it over a few months and release something fantastic.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: hiro on December 21, 2016, 11:00:58 PM
good. i only care about lag. i don't care about tearing. that's why i asked for proof of your first claim that this helps improve lags.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: curaga on December 22, 2016, 03:30:30 AM
pq, your behavior towards others is insulting, and how you sprinkle smileys on top of demands is making me consider a temporary ban. That is no way to behave in this community.

So, you're arguing without knowing the numbers...

I know quite well it's lots more.
Mesa > 10mb (just drivers, llvm and libs not included)
llvm-lib 5.6mb
KMS 1.5mb
...

All components not currently needed in the base.

Quote
And how's that an issue? Intel/AMD/NVIDIA hardware, they are all supporting KMS, at least with the open source drivers.

Much of the hw we support does not have any KMS drivers. And for the hw that does, we don't want to force users to install the 1.5mb support.

Quote
Which Intel/AMD/NVIDIA hardware supports out of the box when using the open source drivers as far as I know.

Indeed it does. At the cost of >30mb space.

Quote
I doubt software rendering is required when using open source drivers on Intel/AMD/NVIDIA hardware, which is probably being used by the majority of users in the (almost) year 2017  :).

It appears you aren't familiar with our supported hw base. We support everything from 486 up, having minimal and embedded targets, while being suitable for VM's, appliances and small servers. Desktop use is not discouraged, but for a user with 2017 hardware looking for a modern experience, there are other distributions such as Ubuntu that might suit them better.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Juanito on December 23, 2016, 05:05:57 AM
Start GNOME 3 @ X (with Mutter as the hardware accelerated compositing window manager incl. Vsync). Now open a window and place the mouse cursor on the window titlebar and click and hold the left mouse button and move the mouse around to move the window around. As you can see, the mouse cursor is faster than the window movement, i.e. there's some kind of input/rendering/drawing lag.
...
Start GNOME 3 @ Wayland and do the same (i.e. move a window around). You will see that the mouse cursor and window movement is in perfect sync and it feels much less laggy and rock solid.
...
The same is also true for running Wayland @ Weston.

Entirely unscientific testing, but with corepure64 if I start gnome 3 and whizz a gnome-terminal window around in circles, it does not look any different to starting weston with the drm backend and whizzing a weston-terminal window around in circles.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Rich on December 23, 2016, 07:24:46 AM
Hi hiro
good. i only care about lag. i don't care about tearing. that's why i asked for proof of your first claim that this helps improve lags.
For what it's worth, with my hardware I've found that anything terminal based benefits greatly by setting  Aterm*transparent
in  .Xdefaults  to  false.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Juanito on December 31, 2016, 01:35:22 AM
It looks very much like the mutter wayland backend will not compile without systemd, in which case wayland cannot be used with the corepure64 version of the gnome desktop.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 31, 2016, 03:26:18 AM
pq, your behavior towards others is insulting

No, it's not. This...:

i.e. support their crappy feature request

is what's insulting.

and how you sprinkle smileys on top of demands is making me consider a temporary ban.

If you think that smileys are something negative, then, well, yeah, maybe you should go ahead... But feel free to delete the entire account then instead of just banning it. But please consider banning hiro first.

Desktop use is not discouraged, but for a user with 2017 hardware looking for a modern experience, there are other distributions such as Ubuntu that might suit them better.

Then I ask myself why Juanito seems to prefer getting the full fledged GNOME 3 up and running instead of the much more minimal Weston.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Juanito on December 31, 2016, 03:38:10 AM
gnome is already up and running with X, so I thought (wrongly) that adding wayland support would be easy.

As far as I know, weston is just a test vehicle - as mentioned above, I got it working, but it doesn't really do much out of the box.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on December 31, 2016, 03:56:04 AM
As far as I know, weston is just a test vehicle - as mentioned above, I got it working, but it doesn't really do much out of the box.

Well, I don't see how FLWM is doing more than Weston. Anyway, there are quite a few Wayland compatible compositors / window managers / desktop environments, the Arch Linux Wiki has a list of them, see:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/wayland#Window_managers_and_desktop_shells

You can test out a few of them by running RebeccaBlackOS:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/rebeccablackos/
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Juanito on December 31, 2016, 05:34:38 AM
weston will be available in the corepure64 8.x repo
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: hiro on December 31, 2016, 06:41:10 AM
@pq5190362 please stop misquoting me in this out of context way.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on January 07, 2017, 04:55:53 AM
It looks very much like the mutter wayland backend will not compile without systemd, in which case wayland cannot be used with the corepure64 version of the gnome desktop.

May I ask how you came to the conclusion that systemd is required to build Mutter with Wayland support?
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on January 07, 2017, 05:01:03 AM
Ah, just came across this:

https://github.com/dantrell/gentoo-project-gnome-without-systemd/blob/master/README.md
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on January 07, 2017, 05:08:02 AM
Also found this:

https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/

and this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Integration_with_other_software

Anyway, what would be so bad about systemd on Tiny Core Linux?
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Juanito on January 07, 2017, 05:13:52 AM
May I ask how you came to the conclusion that systemd is required to build Mutter with Wayland support?

Although the configure script does not halt with an error, config.log shows that the script has searched and failed to find libsystemd and make fails with an unknown type name error.

Neither of the above occurs without the wayland backend.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Juanito on January 07, 2017, 05:19:42 AM
Ah, just came across this:

https://github.com/dantrell/gentoo-project-gnome-without-systemd/blob/master/README.md

From the link above:
Quote
This project delivers:

    GNOME without systemd and with basic functionality
...
The only feature which does not work is Wayland.
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: pq5190362 on January 07, 2017, 05:22:01 AM
Yes, the root cause is explained over there:

https://blogs.gnome.org/ovitters/2013/09/25/gnome-and-logindsystemd-thoughts/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Integration_with_other_software

What would be so bad about systemd on Tiny Core Linux?
Title: Re: Wayland
Post by: Rich on January 07, 2017, 06:44:46 AM
Hi pq5190362
What would be so bad about systemd on Tiny Core Linux?

That's been covered in this thread:
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,16961.msg101662.html#msg101662