Tiny Core Linux

Tiny Core Base => TCB Talk => Topic started by: vinceASPECT on October 13, 2010, 10:27:18 AM

Title: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: vinceASPECT on October 13, 2010, 10:27:18 AM
Hello Forum People,

I also enjoy using Tiny Core linux. IT's a great Linux.

I was wondering about installing TC to a partition on my hard drive. I understand the basic
instructions on how to do this (without a web connection).

my question is simply this:

I don't like GRUB and have never used it to multi boot several OS's on a single partitioned hard drive.

I use a different boot tool called PLOP. This PLOP works fine for me and shows all bootable OS's in all bootable partitions.

Would it be simple for me to install TC to my desired partition (i already know how to do this) then completely IGNORE all instructions about grub manipulations.?

Plop would still show TC as bootable.....and TC should boot.

You see, PLOP runs live from CD disc. Plop does NOT install to any partition on the drive...it only exists in ram.

i can always try all this out....

i just NEVER use grub and never will do. I don't like it.

many thanks

Vince.
Title: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: gerald_clark on October 13, 2010, 10:54:44 AM
The plop home page states that plop cannot boot Linux directly.
You still need grub, lilo, syslinux, or similar to boot Linux.
Title: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: vinceASPECT on October 13, 2010, 11:04:14 AM
really?....so plop won't work?

let me check

V.
Title: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: tinypoodle on October 13, 2010, 12:54:47 PM
vinceASPECT,

First of all, your first post would have deserved a dedicated new thread with a dedicated subject...
Hopefully an admin could split it off.
Edit: Obviously done in the meantime

TC as such is bootloader agnostic and by no means is grub a required bootloader choice.
Take references to grub as non binding suggestions to facilitate users.
As gerald_clark suggested, you could as well use lilo or syslinux.
For me TC has always booted fine by executing linld.com from (Free)DOS, using a batchfile and a (optional) parameterfile.
Title: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: aus9 on October 13, 2010, 03:18:43 PM
hi

and agreeing with TC being bootloader agnostic, you can remaster and have grub or grub2 as your bootloader but I lack the skills to put that into a script but you could mod it ...not that I have attempted to.

references for how to remaster using a diff bootloader but not the actual remastering are here
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/GRUB1+ISO+Remastering

http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/GRUB2+ISO+Remastering

2) if grub is your cd bootloader you can then use it to diagnose things?
Title: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: vinceASPECT on October 13, 2010, 03:22:55 PM
Hi tiny poodle etc..

well all this multi booting OS's got me a little confused.

I only understood some veru basic things.

i was wondering if TINYCORE had any way of chainloading itself?

Currently i have Puppy Linux in it's own parition and some other OS's in other partitions.

But nothing was ever set up about GRUB in puppy. The way i boot puppy is by putting the puppy
LIVE CD into the drive and booting to it....it then scans the hard drive for any HDD of Puppy. When
it finds my install it boots that....instead of the live puppy CD.

Can Tinycore do anything like this?  (apparently Puppy is unique in that it is the only OS that
can do this)

V.
Title: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: gerald_clark on October 13, 2010, 03:42:51 PM
There is a difference between what boots, and what fs is selected for pivot-root.
I suspect Puppy is booting from the DVD, not your HD.  Once the initrd is loaded,
init searches for puppy and pivots root to the new root on the HD.

TC is different in that it never pivots out of the initrd.
Title: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: curaga on October 13, 2010, 11:13:16 PM
You can boot TC from a cd though, while keeping the extensions and data on a hd.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: tinypoodle on October 14, 2010, 04:20:07 AM
You can boot TC from a cd though, while keeping the extensions and data on a hd.

vinceASPECT,
without going into details - as I have the impression you haven't understood in detail how Puppy would boot for you - but I'd reckon the suggestion of curaga would probably come closest to what you are used to from Puppy, practically.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: vinceASPECT on October 14, 2010, 08:07:20 PM
Hi guys and girls,

yes, i really appreciate any help you can give me with TINY CORE linux.

I simply don't really understand the MODES of tiny core.

I assume it works in a kind of similar way to puppy. You boot it up into RAM and then you make a hard drive area for storing PROGRAMS, DATA and EXTENSIONS. You then tell TC what stuff you want it to install on each boot up and what stuff to leave for ON DEMAND.

I kind of understand the modes a LITTLE bit.

Persistance is the word used for how an OS remembers it's changes isn't it?

So presumably the best way of running TC is always in RAM. You don't really need to install TC to a hard drive right?

In that case, i would just like you guys to help me to install TC's persistance area...it's hard drive storage area. Tell me how to do that?

I am then happy to always boot TC from it's CD disk into RAM to use it. According to the blurb this is the best way to use TC and it's not designed to be installed to a hard drive.

In that sense then, i can't see why TC needs any grub related stuff. Can't i just always boot it from CD into RAM?

I see the home page details HOW you install TC to hard drive but i seem to recall comments saying that HDD installs of TC are not really the best way to use it. (perhaps it's a kind of FRUGAL install is it?)

So essentially what i would like you guys to hepl me do is simply get TC working with a persistance area for storage and extensions and a way to boot TC without ever having to touch grub. (This is probably not too complicated right?)

My puppy here was a frugal install to HDD. The way i boot it up is by using the CD of puppy. The CD then scans the HDD for any Puppy install and upon finding mine it boots the HDD version of Puppy.

I was hoping a similar kind of system could be used for TC. (sorry for repeating myself)

many thanks

Vince.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: gerald_clark on October 14, 2010, 08:31:10 PM
All you need to do is create a 'tce' directory on your hard drive, and reboot.
After that, installed extensions and backups will be stored in that tce directory.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: curaga on October 15, 2010, 12:18:41 AM
Ah, I haven't heard the term "frugal install" in a while. Yes, the HD install on the home page would be a frugal one.

But if you want to boot from the cd, just follow gerald_clark's advice.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: vinceASPECT on October 15, 2010, 02:47:45 AM
Hello

This is looking good Gerard and kuraga.

So it really is quite simple then.

Exactly why do people install TC if it's not really designed for HDD install?. I know that the home page describes how to do HDD installs...but why?

V.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: curaga on October 15, 2010, 03:17:17 AM
It's not designed for a scatter install, but a pristine one. It doesn't really matter what device it's booted from, hd just happens to be most convenient.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: PIRAT507 on October 15, 2010, 02:45:16 PM
I even hate grub more!
I had 3 months of trouble with this disaster, on several machines.
I went back to lilo.
Lilo even finds your live CD's in / and  adds these automagically to its menu: boot from iso that's saved on harddisk.
grub is bloated, its menu is blue and lilo's red. Enough said.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: vinceASPECT on October 16, 2010, 07:23:56 AM
Hello,

yes

I do think these topics are a challenge partly because of the appalling explanations that go along with them.

For example, my topic of interest here is "multi booting" different operating systems in different partitions on the same HDD. (One OS per partition)

Now, you instantly realize that a bootloader is needed for this job.

But when you start to read WIKI about GRUB bootloaders not even the BASICS are covered.

Surely the MAIN topic of GRUB is concerning the fact that it is used to boot MORE THAN a single operating system on the same HDD.

YOu look at the explanation of grub in WIKI.

They don't even mention this very basic topic.

For example, whenever you install an operating system on a computer it often AUTOMATICALLY arranges some kind of bootloader (like windows does) or it asks YOU to arrange it (like Linux asks you to organize grub)

So clearly, as you start to install more operating systems on the same HDD these same requests will be presented for each OS install


For example, clearly if you install 4 different Linux versiosn in seperate partitions on the same HDD then all of those distros will ask you to sort out GRUB (or install GRUB)

So you would effectively then have 4 installs of GRUB conflicting?.....OR do you only ever install GRUB once into the first root Operating system? (just leaving one version of grub on the hard drive)

Not even this "ridiculously common sense" VIEWPOINT about grub is covered in any description of multi booting OS's with grub.

To my mind that is lunacy.


i imagine in reality that multi booting several OS's on a single hard dive is infact simple to understand.

The problem comes understanding how to use the actual bootloader tol that achieves your ends (Grub)

In reality this topic should take about 60 seconds to explain to a complete novice how to do. The bootloader that achieves it should be understood in 20 seconds and the subject finished.

In reality GRub presents a nightmare of scenarios for a typical user. Many people don't even understand Grub themselves and then try to explain it to others. As for the wiki pages on grub. They are not even worthy of bin material......  also Grubs homepage is utterly useless as a guide.

Any tool that is so complex to use or explain should be just binned by the world...sadly millions still use GRub. How long it took them to learn it is their funeral..... but they certainly can't explain it to me and i am degree educated.

It's another typical ridiculous computing scenario.
But maybe my understanding of GRUB and multi booting is badly wrong?

V.
Title: Grub bootloader NOT necessary to run TC!
Post by: tinypoodle on October 16, 2010, 08:17:31 AM
In reality this topic should take about 60 seconds to explain to a complete novice how to do. The bootloader that achieves it should be understood in 20 seconds and the subject finished.

Says who?
(Saying
Code: [Select]
In reality does not give the rant more credibility...)

And how is TC which comes shipped with isolinux and pxelinux (plus configurations/scripting of those) as only included bootloaders responsible for what you say?

Any references to grub in any documentation should be taken as any other references to optional extensions containing third party software, a facilitation for users.

IMHO, your initial question has been more than sufficiently answered by several posters.

In an earlier post I had requested that this thread would be split off, and hereby I feel like I have to request that it will be moved out of the "TCB Talk" subforum, as it is offtopic, not even sure if it would qualify for a "TCE*" subforum...
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: vinceASPECT on October 16, 2010, 12:38:26 PM
Hello

yes

Sorry if the post is off...

Yes, my question has been answered and i will try to follow the advice.

The person said that what is needed is to create a certain folder on the target partition. To create the folder  you use a partitioning tool and the appropriate commands. Once created, this folder will hold backups and extensions and give "persistance" to TC.

Apparently, after doing the work above, you can then ignore any grub related work.

TC can then simply be booted from it's CD into RAM each time. Your tools and settings of TC are always remembered.

hope this will work ok.

many thanks,

Vince.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: tinypoodle on October 16, 2010, 03:24:42 PM
1. grub is one of several existing bootloaders which have the capacity to boot a Linux system.

2. Ways of achieving persistence of static and dynamic data under TC are particular to this specific distribution, by design.

Those 2 aspects have no relation and should not be confused.

HTH
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: aus9 on October 16, 2010, 04:43:58 PM
tinypoodle

I agree this post may not belong to a certain forum but I do agree with some aspects of vinceASPECT is suggesting.

So I agree that documentation for most linux bootloaders tends to be poor.

As the maintainer of the 3 wikis on grub1 or grub-legacy or grub2 I am partially responsible for that enduring comment.

I do defend one aspect .....I believe the future is grub2 which is why I did not bother writing a basic grub-legacy type wiki. One might even see thru me and suggest I have deliberately attempted to provide more information on grub2 to seduce the "innocent' people who might peruse our growing wiki collection.....heh heh

2) a normal grub2 on a non-TC install will detect other operating systems....but for various technical reasons we can't use that feature.

I can assure the readers that I attempted to the best of my ability to make that happen but failed due to my lack of programming skills.
And another kind TC member took on the same task and also had some issues...so its not just me to blame for how the TC grub2 tcz file and structure differs from turnkey type grub2 packages.

Again, we all make assumptions but I assume that for those who look at grub2.....do so because they have some experience of grub1

Notice that how we refer to grub or grub1 or grub-legacy or grub patched for TC creates certain issues for newbies?

So the grub2 wiki has had to use the same manual text editor approach to its config file we call grub.cfg in the same spirit as menu.lst

3) But even tho I am a grub2 fanboy....I agree that some of the grub2 development is really messy as well.

Therefore I agree with vinceASPECT...in the general theme that grub as a bootloader be it grub-legacy or grub2 is not easy to understand.

vinceASPECT

Were you referring to any TC wikis by any chance?
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: PIRAT507 on October 16, 2010, 05:56:55 PM
grub2 is a real disaster, even worse than grub the first.
grub is a disaster.
If you don't believe me, just wait for grub3.
I have got 5 machines running, 4 are really cheap second hand thin clients.
two are running tinycore allready, master machine running 8 years Debian after running several years of Slackware.
On the master I seriously do think about switching to micro/tinyCore.
The master has 5 Gb memory.
I do hope micro/tinyCore will be integrated into Debian, somewhere in the future.
Or micro/tinyCore will be able to run Debian packages..
It would mean best of both worlds.
No grub on any machine!
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: tinypoodle on October 16, 2010, 07:27:49 PM
I do hope micro/tinyCore will be integrated into Debian, somewhere in the future.

Huh??  :o
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: tinypoodle on October 16, 2010, 07:32:12 PM
So I agree that documentation for most linux bootloaders tends to be poor.

I have hardly ever seen any piece of software as well documented as loadlin.
Such (unspecific) generalizations don't help.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: vinceASPECT on October 17, 2010, 07:08:39 AM
Hello everybody,

You are very kind to take time on this.

Uh...aus9....well my earlier posts were just a rant and were not directed
pointed at anything TC offers out to userland. No!.

see, this sums up  my computing skill right here...i just lost the entire post after spending time typing it to you......jeeps!

Here goes again from scratch.....

aus9, in actual fact i have found an excellent page describing TC and Grub within the TC website. It really is excellent and extremely accurate information.

it's a perfect explanation and 100 percent common sense. So TC website has reallly impressed here.  (in my little world)

here

http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/Install+more+than+one+Operating+System+on+a+Hard+Drive&structure=Installing+TC

clearly, i did not look further than the end of my nose....

You see guys, i am not very hot with computers and money is never abundant.

I wanted to get the very most out of my new PC here. It is a 3.7ghz Hyperthread pentium 4.

I have got a special windows software tool called HyperOS.

http://www.hyperossystems.co.uk/   (HyperOS 2004FE)

It allows me to put unlimited versions of any popular Linux  flavours.....and 22 versions of any flavours of windows....... onto the same hard drive.

It's multi-booting right there!

I have used HyperOS a lot and enjoy it.

Sometimes however, Linux flavours can mess about with Grub. There can be conflicts...or impending conflicts which are narrowly avoided.

i don't want to mess my HOS machine up because currently i never need to re-make this machine. HyperOS allows me to drag and drop an entire OS into a fresh new slot on the desktop. So i can clone entire operating systems in 2 minutes.

Currently i have 8 winXP machines on my desktop. Machine 1 is a virgin winXP which just  has drivers for the hardware. That stays in a virgin state.

Sometimes, if needs must, i drag the "virgin winXP" over into a spare new desktop slot and this makes a fresh new winXP machine.

Other winXP machines i dedicate to music..... and other winXP machines are dedicated to the web. Other WinXP machines are for programming and Visual Studio and .net frameworks.

The HyperOS tool is great for me. So It was a bad gamble for me to mess around with Grub... it would be silly to ruin my HYperOS scenario.

I started this thread to find out how to avoid Grub....while still bieng able to get TC Linux onto my machine.... and get some other Linux flavours on.

It is all going pretty well, so thanks for your help.

I was never sure which bootloader is used by HyperOS.

Some reports said that people noticed that Grub behaved rather well with certain versions of HyperOS. (there are 3 popular versions).

But with my version of HyperOS,  i was worried about the possibility that it may already have a linux loader in it.....and maybe messing  with new Grub installs was a bad idea.

So in summary, it appears to be going ok now.

For me, it was about getting TC Linux working effectively. While keeping the HyperOS system in pristine condition. TC is a great operating system.

Thankyou for your time. Thankyou very much for TC Linux!

bye for now,

vinceASPECT.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: tinypoodle on October 18, 2010, 05:38:52 AM
Linux Boot Loaders Compared:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~lennartb/bootloaders/bootloaders.html

Some pretty good documentation about Linux bootloader and the whole mechanism involved, despite not having been updated for more than 7 years...
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: vinceASPECT on October 18, 2010, 07:37:46 AM
Hello

Tiny Core Linux is working well here after followed the forum advice in this thread.

Thankyou.

I must now search for a teaching of how to compile other Linux Applications for the TC operating system.

thanks,

V.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: Juanito on October 18, 2010, 09:38:40 AM
I must now search for a teaching of how to compile other Linux Applications for the TC operating system.

See linux from scratch/beyond linux from scratch and the extensions section of the tinycore wiki
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: xnix on October 23, 2010, 09:00:14 PM
I do hope micro/tinyCore will be integrated into Debian, somewhere in the future.

Huh??  :o

Ahahahaha! Sorry, this bit just got me going.
Title: Re: Grub bootloader necessary?
Post by: ^thehatsrule^ on October 27, 2010, 02:35:58 PM
The last few extremely off-topic posts in this thread have been removed.  Please keep this on topic.

Also, it's fine if you dislike something but please provide a valid explanation.  Otherwise, do not bother to post.