Tiny Core Linux
Tiny Core Base => TCB Talk => Topic started by: jur on November 26, 2009, 11:35:32 PM
-
With the question of how to make tcl persistent popping up from time to time, and I am guessing the majority of users using persistence (my assumption) I wonder if tcl's default mode should perhaps be tce/mount (or tce/install)? How useful is it that a user has to download everything everytime? Stuff like your email and browser favorites, to mention just a few, need to be there for next time. Not to mention any customizations.
So to make tcl more accessible to the neophytes perhaps persistence could be the default mode? (Of course when working from a cd a multi-session is necessary and perhaps not applicable right now.) I am guessing most people expect their stuff to be there the next time they fire it up. tcl is so easy and quick to install to a usb stick or the hard drive, it is just begging for it. :)
-
Although, I like the way TCL is presently working vai RAM w/o the need of HDD etc, but still I fully agree with the idea of session persistance - the way Knoppix has done !
It may be possible to include at least some basic utilities - like bash, PPPSetup, Dial-up scripts ( for Cable as well as Mobile/wireless connection), a small text browser ( pine) - if not mozilla/firefox, and atleast a command line music player. It wont hurt if some another 3/4 MBs are incresed in this distro - my personal opinion , off-course !
Cause - average basic newbee find it difficult to install/configure everthing from scratch and that too everytime !
I know this may be against TCLs philosophy - but increasing interest for TCL amongst youth - should be addressed too !
TCL Team is the best judge ! :)
~ Pats
-
Dial-up scripts ( for Cable as well as Mobile/wireless connection)
Do you need a dial-up script for Cable? Usually they are just working without any magic.
small text browser ( pine)
Pine is not a text browser but a mail client. Both pine and text browsers are in the repo.
EDIT: Talking about pine in the repo I mean alpine
-
FYI, the usbinstall script does set up tce= automatically. To not have this "default" mode means that configuring will need to be done. If you are talking about the install guide, it remains minimal so the user can choose what to do.
-
That's true, didn't remember this... Perhaps this nugget could find its way to the core concepts page.
I followed the way of using unetbootin from Windows because my netbook does not have a cd drive, plus it's much more convenient to use a usb stick at the start instead of using a cd every time you want to try a distro. The default mode there was of course cloud mode and it took a lot of puzzling to make the connection. As a noob I didn't have the first clue about boot codes.
-
Sorry for the two typos !:(
Do you need a dial-up script for Cable?
Pl read it : Dial-up scripts ( for /Dongles/ as well as Mobile/wireless connection)
Pine is not a text browser but a mail client.
Pl read it : a small text browser ( /Lynx/ ) - if not mozilla/firefox
By the way - Is it installed by default ?
Both pine and text browsers are in the repo.
Correct, but I mean all these basic utils (mentioned in my post should be installed by default on the CD-iso itself like fdisk , if possible!
What abt those people - who cannot start dnloading the repo apps right-away due to unconfigured ppp thru AppBrowser ?
Just a suggestion ! :)
~Pats
-
I can't speak to your situations, but what brought me to TCL was its minimal core and extreme customization options. I've seen a number of suggestions for a "basic" set of apps that "everybody" uses, and (besides a web browser) I don't use any of them. Even with the browser it's good to have a choice. I invested the time it took to figure out persistency and arrive at a set of apps that meets my needs.
There are a number of other Linux distros that install with various sets of applications built in. That's the approach they chose to take and more power to them. The great thing about Linux is that if one distro doesn't have the features you want there's another distro that does. But by the same token I think that means each distro is entitled to its own approach.
-
Although I personally haven't burned a cd in ages, I can see some merit in providing an iso which includes a tce/optional directory with as many user apps, browsers, wireless tools, gtk libraries, and related dependencies as space on one cd permits. Development tools, web servers, etc, can be left off for later download.
That way laptop users have most of what they might need to start out with at their disposal.
-
I can't speak to your situations, but what brought me to TCL was its minimal core and extreme customization options
Agreed ! I only expected some possible installations of most basic and common utils only. :)
There are a number of other Linux distros that install with various sets of applications built in.
But those are not as fast and minimal as TCL. So I suggested a little additions of Vitamins ( read - Utils ). :)
I can see some merit in providing an iso which includes a tce/optional directory with as many user apps, browsers, wireless tools, gtk libraries, and related dependencies
Exactly , Combo3 ! You got it correctly ! :)
Development tools, web servers, etc, can be left off for later download.
Most of the basic users does not need those either !
Let us see - what TCL Team thinks abt these suggestions - we dafinately love TCL. :)
~ Pats
-
If this were done, there should be a separate boot menu option, and the tce directory should be something like
tce.cd so it will not collide with a users tce installed elsewhere.
-
I see it like thane does. There is no "basic" set, and the goal is complete customizability. One man's basic app is anothers bloat.
On topic: How to guess where to save? What if the user doesn't want the hd touched?
Of course it would be kinda fun to automatically format all found NTFS partitions to ext2, but I doubt the users would like that ;)
-
Personally I wasn't thinking of a basic set of apps, I also like the idea of a completely bare bones starting point. This is THE main reason I came to tcl. I HATE bloat.
I was thinking of the troubles I had to get persistence going. I was thinking of puppylinux's approach where they very helpfully guide you to choose a place where to save your stuff. I was thinking of how to make tcl more accessible to everybody, not only the linux initiates. It's all very well that experts like you can make your pc jump through hoops but that helps nothing to the uninitiated. It is good to be able to make things work without asking to many questions, but at the moment many questions is the status quo.
I want to see tcl be a top 10 distro. I am thinking of how to take tcl to the next level. Or am I mistaken that there is going to be a next level?
-
Well, as far as being an expert or a Linux initiate you must mean curaga; that certainly isn't me! ;D
I too found persistence obscure when I started and wouldn't have minded a specific guide to attaining it (even though it might just have been something like "when you're booting and you see that pfkey message, push PF2 or PF3 and type in "tinycore waitusb=5 tce=sda1").
In Puppy Linux you're saving personal settings and content that were created during the session. The actual applications are included in the CD or installation. IIRC, it asks you the first time you shutdown where you want to save your session info.
I guess for TC to have an equivalent function, it would have ask during booting if/where the user wants to save downloaded applications? Presumably this would be done only if no tce directory was specified by bootcode and none was found by the autoscan, and if "base" wasn't specified? And the user could skip creating a tce directory if he/she wanted to -- i.e. boot to cloud mode?
Hmm...
-
Unfortunately, we have no idea what drive or partition to suggest for the tce directory.
It is better to make no suggestion, than an incorrect one.
-
I suggest, without changing the existing, in addition to the existing, have a Tiny Core CD with the commonly used programs, as well as the easiest programs for installation on a hard drive (GParted), and extensions needed for USB installation.
People may use the CD to try Tiny Core.
Some people may run Tiny Core from the CD for some time.
This would also make installation easier for newbies.
Note: This would still not save personal settings.
Those who understand could continue using the existing method. Newbies could use this CD.
I know there are other options. I believe GParted is easiest for people with little knowledge of Linux.
-
Personally I wasn't thinking of a basic set of apps, I also like the idea of a completely bare bones starting point. This is THE main reason I came to tcl. I HATE bloat.
Well said, sir !
But for a common user, bare bones also include apps like - file browser ( at least - mc ), and a web-b ( at-least - lynx ) and since all does not have Cable or a dedicated line to connect to Internet - so a tools to setup - USB dongles and Data Cables - so anybody can access net on TCL while on the move , if I am not expecting too much ! :)
As far as - getting persistence - I think most of them can dafinately provide an HDD partition, since if they are using other Linux Distros a saparate large partition is used any-way.
But the beuty of TCL is its min requirement - even a small 100MB HDD partition on hdd/usb stick is sufficient. And this can be provided thru boot codes - if possible.
And most imp - what if the user is not getting persistant link to connect to net due to any damn reason - and he want to do major work off-line ? Should he sit idle crossing his hands ?
Hope I am not too loud ! :)
~ Pats
-
If you are currently using a Linux partition you do not even need to make a partition for Tiny Core.
Tiny Core resides peacefully embedded in an existing Linux partition! In fact, you can place, bzImage, tinycore.gz in the default tce directory thereby the kernel, tinycore, your backup, and all downloaded extensions are in a single directory that you did not even have to create (see below)!. Even using persistent home, will in fact co-exist with an existing Linux home directory same for persistent opt.
I really don't see what is so hard or difficult to use the one time boot code of say, tce=had2 to have your extensions stored to hard drive thus providing persistence. You don't even need to make the directory!
Walk before you run. Cloud mode -> tce=hda2 -> then move on to other forms of persistency and only if needed!
As fas a full CD goes, here is our responce:
1. How could we ever decide what to include. The very nature of Tiny Core is not to make such decisions.
2. Who would support it. This is especially true relating to issues of connectivity. Tiny Core is a rolling distribution. As soon as a CD would be cut, it would be out of date as many components are updated frequently in the repository.
3. It discourages user from exploring the "Core Way" Really. How hard is it to add for example, tce=hda2 to your boot options? And such boot option is only needed one time!
4. Additionally such CD would still not work for systems requiring firmware or other non-redistributables.
5. And finally, there is a paradigm shift starting in the way we use computers. The "Windows User Interface" is starting to grow whiskers. Tiny Core is different. Tiny Core is the renaissance of "small is beautiful" while embracing the paradigm shift to alternate ways to use an operating system..
Tiny Core really requires little effort for much flexibility. It only requires an open mind to new ways to use an operating system. Tiny Core is not "Not Your Father's Operating System".
-
I really don't see what is so hard or difficult to use the one time boot code of say, tce=had2
Indeed it seems ridiculously easy. And once you know about boot codes, it is.
However, I didn't know what boot codes were. I didn't know where to put them. All I saw was a cryptic instruction of 'tinycore tce=....' I didn't know where this would be typed (somewhere during boot?) but having used unetbootin I never got the opprtunity... So to be able to use tc I had to really search hard and even that wasn't enough as most of the stuff I encountered here was still cryptic.
You have to see this from a Windows refugee point of view. I was in search of a quick boot, to untie myself from the HDD, to say goodbye to bloat, to have a responsive OS (Windows is slowed down by virus checker and system deterioration), free sw and so on. My route to TC was ubuntu, xubuntu, puppylinux, TC, with slax and slitaz and others featuring as well. But the first time I found TC didn't make me stay - I was simply not ready for it. It assumed too much background knowledge. Puppylinux really excels here - it is easily the most helpful OS around. Slax is also amazingly well polished at first look but unfortunately it's a one man band and I am not sure about the longevity.
In fact longevity is probably my single biggest problem with linux in general.
-
I cannot believe that reading http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html is hard to find or difficult to understand.
Near the beginning of Core Concepts...
The Second Mode of Operation: TCE/Install
The second mode of operation is the use of the boot option tce=hdXY...
Is also not hard to find.
But....
If you need a Windows like-a-like, operate-a-like, then there are many, many , IMHO, too many Linux distributions that swim in that sea of sameness.
If you need an OS that runs everything as root, so you don't have to learn *nix then there are those too.
If the goal of this thread is make Core siwm there as well, then sorry. Really not interested in being a me too.
With Android, Chrome OS and several other OS that don't look like or operate like Windows is refreshing to see.
Be bold. Be different.
-
The goal is not to have a swim-there-as-well. :) On the contrary - I am here because I hate window$.
No, the goal is to ease the use of tc for rank beginners. A short paragraph explaining what boot codes are, and where to actually insert them, would be a step in the right direction.
I cannot believe that reading http://www.tinycorelinux.com/concepts.html is hard to find or difficult to understand.
I am an EE (and therefore hopefully not a complete idiot) and I found it completely cryptic. I had to read over it many times and do a lot of googling and reading before it started to make sense to me.
-
So now we have gone from "making a full CD distro" of out tiny core to
Indeed it seems ridiculously easy. And once you know about boot codes, it is.
And now complaining about documentation. Well that is what the Wiki is for.
The Wiki is user documentation for users by users, i.e., from a user's perspective.
I stay out of the way. I find it amusing that some say developers are too lazy to write documentation, yet when we do, we get this.
So contribute. The Wiki is waiting.
-
Not sure what you're on about... I never suggested a 'full CD' or anything of the sort, quite the opposite. I really like TC the way it is. I am merely putting forward suggestions that might make it easier for rank beginners to use, from a beginner's perspective. I can't see why that is so objectionable. That's not complaining at all, it's called constructive criticism.
It wouldn't affect the distro at all, and it would be quite a small addition to the 'core concepts' page. I would write it but only you have access to the 'core concepts' page which is the proper place for it to be since that is where it is mentioned several times. At least a link to a proper explanation in the wiki could be provided.
-
I guess we are not reading the same thread. You keep comparing Tiny Core to complete turnkey desktops. Several times, It is in this thread. So I don't understand you. I cannot follow.
I can take crisitism. But to imply that the concept is too dificult or needs to be changed to accomodate neophytes or needs to be like turnkey desktops, well its not.
This thread has not been about documentation.
I cannot make it easier to deploy. You also said this earlier in this very thread:
Indeed it seems ridiculously easy. And once you know about boot codes, it is.
Linux boot codes is not unique to Tiny Core.
But if one were starting with a new distro, one would think that that it might be helpful to peruse the FAQ
http://www.tinycorelinux.com/faq.html#bootcodes
BTW, You don't need access to modify the webiste to make suggestions.
Was the title you chose for this tread, "what is a bootcode?" or perhaps, "bootcodes and where, when, and how to use them". No look at the title you chose.
I am done.
-
Well, several people have posted on this thread. Jur's posts were about making persistence easier to understand and implement for new users (which based on my experience is a legitimate concern). A few ideas besides just documentation changes were kicked around, but none that would alter TCL's main concepts.
Other posters suggested providing an ISO that includes a "basic" set of apps, which is a separate issue.
Nobody suggested making TCL "more like Windows". I think everyone here probably used/uses Windows, and if we thought it was all that great we wouldn't have explored other distros at all. Particularly TCL, which is almost a polar opposite ;D.
I agree that persistence is easy once you know how to get it. I did read the core concepts when I started and it still took a few attempts.
-
Unfortunately it seems that robert misunderstands my intent quite a bit... :-[ but I'm not going to further degenerate this thread because of misunderstandings... its intent was to suggest ways to make it easier for neophytes to handle because there is a certain amount of assumed background knowledge in the various FAQs... so unfortunately to the neophyte, these aren't actually very helpful. If you explained concepts in tech terms which themselves require explanation, then that explanation is wasted. The very fact that despite all the info, there are still regular questions on how to achieve persistence, should be an indicator. If it was abundantly clear, then obviously those questions would be fewer.
Anyway Robert, I am not ungrateful... so I made a contribution to the wiki on boot codes and want to express my thanks for tc. Hopefully you will appreciate that while you have lots of linux fu, you do lack some teacher fu. :)