Tiny Core Linux
Tiny Core Base => TCB Talk => Topic started by: Guy on August 30, 2009, 02:50:52 AM
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Just an idea. I would be interested to know what others think.
Some people are saying they are having difficulty installing Tiny Core. There are no-doubt others who give up and don't say anything, and others who don't even try because it appears too difficult.
It may be a good idea to make an "Easy to Install iso." That is an iso with a tce folder and extensions.
It could include all of the easiest programs for new users.
For example, GParted for partitioning, Xfe file manager and Leafpad text editor.
It could have Grub already setup in the correct directory, and have menu.lst already there with examples (hashes in front which could be unhashed).
All that new users would need to do is:
Run GParted to set up partitions.
Copy the contents of the CD to the hard drive using Xfe.
Use Leafpad to edit menu.lst.
Set up the master boot record.
It could also include everything needed to run usbinstall.
I am not saying do away with the existing, but have an additional easier option for new users.
What are the thoughts of others?
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i don't have anything against it, but i don't find it very useful since loading the core, mkdir a tce directory and downloading apps to it is just two steps more in the process, which is almost the same as what you have to do while using ubuntu and wanting, say, skype (editing sources.list and apt-get install). from my point of view, i find tc easier to load and run than every other distros because you don't have to do nothing (unless you have to run it from a usb/external drive, but i assume that new users having to do that know the basics in order to syslinux their usb or to grub it). i think where you are right is that most new users to tc don't understand how to make extensions and personal preferences persistent over boots. i see it as a minor point and not a show stopper for new users since it is well documented in the site. from this point of view, a readme.txt or html file could be added to the f2 and f3 files in order to give at boot a little help saying in vernacular langage how to get your preferences and extensions persiste over boots.
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FYI I made some changes to the site's webpages.
Changed installation page (install.html).
* Including a note that a new partition is not needed if installing to an existing Linux/Grub system.
* Changed the resulting "cloud mode" of these instructions to PPR mode, by added the creation of a tce/ directory and empty mydata.tgz in Step 5.
* Added a note about when waitusb=5 will likely be needed in Step 6.
Changed faq.html
* Dropped nolocal boot code.
* Added noautologin boot code.
Changed index.html
* Dropped reference to including jwm
* Added mention of Micro Core
Changed concepts.html (mostly regarding PPI changes)
* Dropped clauses about nolocal
* Added clauses about requiring PPI Compatible extensions
* Added note about when waitusb would likely be required.
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You don't really need to manually make directories and set permissions.
You don't need to dedicate a partition to use Tiny Core or Micro Core.
The method that I was trying to explain under a barrage of rants is to use the CD.
Note the Installation Guide states, at Step 0.
It assumes that TC was booted from a liveCD and is already running on the target system with Internet access.
It is important to explore Tiny Core's capabilities by booting the CD first. To blindly make a CD and then install is not the best way to try the various boot options. That way the user would not know what options to type when the Installation Guide says:
Optionally, add other bootcodes now on the kernel line separated by spaces.
Most never bother to explore Tiny Core, but instead enter nothing at this Step 6. Of course they ended up with a Cloud Mode installation.
As I stated, I have now changed Step 5 to "make the decision" that this is a PPR autoscan mode of installation.
By the way, the easiest by far is to let the CD booting do the work for you. By booting with the CD
boot: tinycore hda1=tce restore=hda1
The tce directory is automatically made and the backup file and its location is set.
Could not be easier than that. No editor needed. No file manager needed.
Just a clear head without preconceived notions to accept that it is THAT easy.
Note too that the booting CD with boot code of home=hda1 will automatically make /home/tc on hda1 or if this is an already existing linux system, will simply add tc/ under the existing /home directory. The home directory will be completely setup for persistency.
Same goes for opt=hda1. By simply using the boot code on a new system will automatically create and setup /opt for persistency.
Can't boot from a CD, then you must know how to edit your bootloader config file to achieve the same effects.
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FYI I made some changes to the site's webpages.
Changed installation page (install.html).
* Including a note that a new partition is not needed if installing to an existing Linux/Grub system.
* Changed the resulting "cloud mode" of these instructions to PPR mode, by added the creation of a tce/ directory and empty mydata.tgz in Step 5.
* Added a note about when waitusb=5 will likely be needed in Step 6.
Changed faq.html
* Dropped nolocal boot code.
* Added noautologin boot code.
Changed index.html
* Dropped reference to including jwm
* Added mention of Micro Core
Changed concepts.html (mostly regarding PPI changes)
* Dropped clauses about nolocal
* Added clauses about requiring PPI Compatible extensions
* Added note about when waitusb would likely be required.
roberts,
I think there might be an error on the page "install.html" or I am misreading it. Step 6 says to:
cp -p /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/* /mnt/hda1/boot/grub/
However, on the version i have, there is no directory "/usr/lib/grub." This might be a stale wiki page.
I'm using the newest released version: tinycore_2.3.1.iso
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Note Step 1 title:
1. Obtaining cfdisk and GRUB via appbrowser
Then note the last line of step 1:
Now repeat this process, by selecting and installing grub-0.97-splash.tce.
Doing such will provide "/usr/lib/grub".
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I agree I think there should be an easy install version for those newer linux users. Why should this distro be limited to just one group of users?
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Dear sirs it is a very good idea that you are trying to get tcl much easier to install. I observe Alu's comment that it is a relatively easy matter "loading the core, mkdir a tce directory and downloading apps to it" following Guy's initial statement (to make an iso and tce folder..) .
It appears that some people are even less capable than what Guy is proposing. Despite reading the Help page at the website, some people are getting stuck after downloading the winzip file for tiny-core2.5. They are are unsure of what to do after opening the winzip file, do they burn a cd from it, do they burn just the iso image or do they add the other folders, or do they create a partition and drop some of the folders from the opened winzip file into the the partition?
So I think it would be wonderful if someone like yourselves made it even more simple for those people that are not "techie" or just beginning.
Many thanks to you all.
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Download the .iso file, and burn it to a cd.
Here is some more info
[removed due to policy violation]/net-install.html
click on links for other subjects
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Split October script discussion to: http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php?topic=3913.0
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...
* Dropped nolocal boot code....
I just installed tc-2.6rc2 to a usb stick, and on checking boot codes, found the nolocal boot code was put in there.
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I find TC very easy to install already... But I agree non-experienced users may have issues.
Making an automated installation script dont seem too difficult, since you just copy files and install grub...
Guy, you are welcome to make one.
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BTW, tc works under FAT or NTFS partitions as well? So it could use windows partitions...
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Just an idea. I would be interested to know what others think.
I like the concept of TCL architecture - Keep it minimum and add what is needed more. Best Luck to TCL Team. :)
By the way , Is there any list of mirrors for TCL downoads ?
Can there be a zipped version , including all the additional modules and Libs along with TCL base sytem ?
Best Luck !
~ Pats
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BTW, tc works under FAT or NTFS partitions as well? So it could use windows partitions...
If TC works on a FAT partition, you'd probably find you'd have trouble with file permissions on persisten home, opt, and tce dirs.
NTFS wouldn't work without some monkey magic.
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Please keep on topic. Unrelated posts should be made in new threads (can message me if you wish to split out yours).
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Your question appears to have 2 parts; #1 easy install, #2 remaster with apps
You may want to read the following post regarding #1:
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php?topic=3878.msg20288#msg20288
Regarding #2, what I am trying to accomplish is to get TC running in ram exactly the way I want, then remaster the ram-TC to an iso. If and when I get there, I will post a HowTo.
I am liking, more each day, the completely minimalistic approach of this distro.
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A friend of mine gave me a thumb drive with TinyCore on it. I was impressed with the size and power of this OS. Unfortunately, I have just wasted 10 hours of my day trying to find how to make a "LiveCD" as mentioned in the installation instructions. Count me as one of those who is untimately frustrated by the lack of simple instructions for creating such a disk. I guess this OS is just for you rocket scientists.
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It is no harder to burn an iso of Tinycore than it is to do the same for Puppy or Ubuntu. Download the iso image:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/tinycorelinux/2.x/release/tinycore_2.6.1.iso
Then install the cdrtools.tcz extension, or use another distro to burn the image with. Graphical burning programs exist to make this easier but cdrtools will do just fine. With the empty cd in the cd tray, If you don't know the device name of the cd burner, then use this command to show you what device to use:
# cdrecord -scanbus
That will show a number on the left of the cd burning device. You will use this number as the device name. If it is 1001.0.0, then open a terminal in the directory of the iso image and enter:
# cdrecord dev=1001,0,0 speed=8 tinycore_2.6.1.iso
A low speed helps prevent errors. This should produce a bootable cd.
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Since TC has many uses for people who have no clue about linux it would be a good idea.
Personally I feel an installer would lessen stress somewhat for these and it really shouldn't take more than a kilobyte or two. I cite as an example: (this might require an MS installer though) Vista runs like crap, steals ~1 gig of your ram for cache(seriously?) and actually occupies a further 70+ MB. Constructing a system with TC would be better for those people (assuming they don't have CS3 or someother wine killer) but they won't because they either don't have a cd-burner or get wonderfully lost installing on USB (on this note: the windows part of the wiki could use some clarification; as well as a few other equally short entries in the installation section) or even more likely...THEY ARE AFRAID THEY WILL SCREW UP...I taught a tech class in school and I noticed immediately that the people (IN A TECH CLASS) will do one of these things:
1. ask for help immediately if something goes wrong
2. if there's no one around give up or tentatively try to do something(jiggle mouse, random clicks,etc.)
OR
3. try to do it on their own
4. go overboard and do something like fry their BIOS
(belive it or not the class was mostly girls and (not trying to stereotype) they ALL fit into 1 and 2)
Installing is for the first set that would give up, as they wouldn't even try it in the first place without a guide.
I'm suggesting that these people would benefit more from TC than a large distro because of a few factors:
1. they only have to be afraid of what they become brave enough to try, NOT the myraid of hidden features.
2. Its fast and it isn't vista.
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For Windows users, I'm looking into making TC better supported within the two easy to use usb installers:
Linux Live USB installer, and unetbootin.
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Guy and others
I am a TC newbie but have some experience with Linux. Warning....I have a sense of humour.
Your main point on newbie...issue....I fall into that category is correct.....but all distros suffer from a lack of good documentation/wiki/videos IRC support (where applicable) etc.
2) So the current installation guide is good enough but would scare gui users used to gparted....point noted.
3) My issue....which I hope is same for all newbies is the lack of clear documents....wiki....mainly on what is NOT linked on the install page
http://tinycorelinux.com/install.html
no link to
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=Boot+Options
4) Persistance....the main issue for newbies is not documented clear enough for people (ok me me me) to grasp even if my Dr says I can read English...heh heh
eg
persistance is mentioned on
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=Boot+Options BUT no explanation
So you go to the explanation page
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=Boot+codes+explained
....hmm thats not exactly informative..........................IMHO its not written to explain it to a newbie
So lets try
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=Backup
This page is the most informative.....but suffers in mixing messages.......the newbie gets options but no for and against comparison and more importantly.....the why.....the reason for persisting.....and existing.....heh heh
I don't mean to sound rude....but this part of the wiki has me stumped.........
Not Backup Files and Settings
If you use persistent home and opt, and make extensions for any applications which contain personal settings (for example printer setup), you do not need to use backup at all
We have a contrapositive heading......and again we have mixed messages.....the use of persistence with personal settings.
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Ok so above may seem to be rude.....but I believe in being transparent....so must suffer any replies equally blunt.
I do intend to remaster a distro with some common apps and stuff like lxde...included leafpad and a filemanager, web browser,
and if its not against the rules....shall post the download link and the script to build it to prove I am not trying to be nasty but informative.
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Note to myself....stop talking ....no-one listens....sign of disrespect
ok joking aside.....for TC to be my host ....my real system....ok I know its virtual....in RAM etc.....TC needs improving. I do not claim I am a developer or a programmer etc.....but if you can hear what a TC newbie is saying......a larger download with more apps.....is APPRECIATED
regards
gordy aka aus9
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It's a wiki. If you don't like it, you get to fix it.
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Guy and others
3) My issue....which I hope is same for all newbies is the lack of clear documents....wiki....mainly on what is NOT linked on the install page
http://tinycorelinux.com/install.html
no link to
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=Boot+Options
4) Persistance....the main issue for newbies is not documented clear enough for people (ok me me me) to grasp even if my Dr says I can read English...heh heh
eg
persistance is mentioned on
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=Boot+Options BUT no explanation
So you go to the explanation page
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=Boot+codes+explained
....hmm thats not exactly informative..........................IMHO its not written to explain it to a newbie
So lets try
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=Backup
I have to agree here. I'm also new and I cannot figure out this whole persistance thing. I don't think a simple installation version is required, just Easy to Install instructions for Non-Experts. The kind of user that really wants to learn something more about Linux and this kind of light distro, but come from Ubuntu type backgrounds.
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I'm also new and I cannot figure out this whole persistance thing.
It is difficult to know what you have done and what you have not done, or what you understand and what you don't understand.
If you installed on a hard drive, you probably included tce=sda1 (or another partition) in the boot options. Also include home=sda1 and opt=sda1 (use the correct partition).
There is also additional information here. You don't need to use this method, but read the additional information.
http://wiki.tinycorelinux.com/tiki-index.php?page=Installing+TC+-+Alternate+Offline+Guide
If you are still not able to make it work, start another page in this forum, explain what you have done, and what you can't get working. People will help.
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I'm new to TinyCore, relatively new to Linux (have been using for last 2 years as main OS), and using the wiki and these forums i pretty much had no trouble. Managed to get a TC installation complete with wireless, sound, all the apps i usually use, security, the works - only took me an evening.
It's a bit more difficult that installing something like Ubuntu, sure, but thats half the fun. My installation is exactly how i want it, runs lightning fast even on this piece of crap laptop, and i learnt so much about linux and grub through the install process it was worth the hassle just for that experience.
I get annoyed with some distros including a tonne of stuff i dont want and will never use that only bloats and slows down my system. I like that TC was different, if a little more work.
Don't know what the point of this post is really, just wanted a place to say thanks to whoever has contributed to the wiki, and obviously the maker/makers of TC, and put in my $0.02.
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i respectfully disagree with the original poster. the reason why tiny core is so special is that it is so small, yet it works great. fortunately there are knowledgeable and generous members here that go the distance with a newbie and fix them up. i know this first hand.
one change i would make to the installation tutorial is this:
when editing the menu.lst file with vi, everything is fine except this is needed:
Once you've finished editing, hitting the <esc> key and typing ":wq" (without the "quotes" as in :=command mode, w=write, q=quit) and then hitting the <enter> key will save the file and exit vi.
a newbie is not going to know to do this, if it is written there somewhere and i overlooked it, my fault. otherwise, this change would be helpful. i recall being extremely frustrated at that time. screenshot(s) would be icing on the cake.
here is the thread and the relevant info.
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php?topic=6228.30
replies #39 and #40
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ejames82: it uses :x (which is equivalent to :wq)
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BTW, tc works under FAT or NTFS partitions as well? So it could use windows partitions...
If TC works on a FAT partition, you'd probably find you'd have trouble with file permissions on persisten home, opt, and tce dirs.
NTFS wouldn't work without some monkey magic.
TC works perfectly well though on a FAT partition with all files necessary to boot + PPR (extensions) + backup (mydata.tgz)
In fact it is more easy to boot TC from a FAT partition than e.g. from a reiserfs partition, as most file systems (with exception of ext* and FAT*) depend on filesystems-*-tinycore.tcz being already loaded first.
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^thehatsrule^
"it uses :x"
you must mean vi.
i did try ":x", it wouldn't work (i tried several times), but ":wq" did (first time). i can't remember specifically what happened, but i think "x" is supposed to leave vi, and it didn't. where "wq" did.
perhaps my problem was an isolated and rare occurance, or i did something wrong, but to add in "if :x doesn't work, try :wq instead" may help a newbie. it would have helped me.
i think the programs that the original poster suggests are probably great programs. during that first "rocky" installation, i used gparted to partition and leafpad during the installation which i installed leafpad myself. i remember wishing i had a gui file manager at least a couple of times. i'll bet Xfe is a great one (i'll have to check it out), but i still got by thanks to the help i received.
i'm just giving my own opinion that i think this distro is heading in the right direction already.
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i remember wishing i had a gui file manager at least a couple of times.
emelfm - and gtkfind is also very useful
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with Xfe file manager, emelfm - and gtkfind, maybe a decision couldn't be made which one to choose. do any of these file managers have a unique feature that the others don't?
are they all listed in the appbrowser list?
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emelfm and gtkfind are very small and only need gtk1, I imagine the xfe file manager will need the whole xfe thing to be installed, but I could be wrong.
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We might be drifting a bit from the original topic but FWIW, I like emelfm2 because it allows me to add my own tool buttons for custom commands - like 'open this file in my favorite text editor' or 'just delete this right now, recursively, as root, without asking if I really want to!'.
I haven't really surveyed the other file managers - some or all of the others may also be customizable.
By the way, is there a good tool for recovering accidentally deleted files? ;D
(just kidding)
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I haven't really surveyed the other file managers - some or all of the others may also be customizable.
ROX-filer certainly is... :)
By the way, is there a good tool for recovering accidentally deleted files? ;D
(just kidding)
That would highly depend on file system (I kid you not :P)
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NTFS wouldn't work without some monkey magic.
Well, the monkey magic is here. I took some time to hack together a remaster script that does the following steps:
- download all necessary files: kernel, initramfs and tczs (if they are already downloaded they are checked with md5sum if an update is required)
- patch the initramfs to include and fully support ntfs-3g
- put original initramfs, the patched one and together some other useful tczs on an ISO image
The bootloader on the CD is GRUB4DOS, because it can be copied from the CD to a harddrive and still just works, no /usr/lib/grub needed. The whole intention was to have an ISO from that I can setup a Tiny Core Linux system without the need for internet access.
[^thehatsrule^: removed, remaster]
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My 2 cents for whatever its worth, I like the current install method.
I come from a HEAVY "other proprietary OS" background and this method has helped me learn a lot. There could be perhaps some explanation in the opening installation guide of mounting drives and the difference between /dev/hda and /mnt/hda (for examples only) because this concept is a bit different to "mapping drives" and it would have made things clearer. Perhaps also some explanation of the role of grub. Once I got my head around those philosophies it all started to come together.
This is not a criticism of TC - this is the same for all Linux's.
The opportunity to then add on bits and pieces and learn how each worked has been fun and worthwhile.
I can't think how you would make it easier without creating a complete boot-to-install-script version.
Thanks.
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It's actually mounting filesystems, rather than drives, to be accurate.
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>>a gui file manager at least a couple of times . . >>
My favourite remains midnight commander, mc. Small (I've got a version below 400kB)
and available in TinyCore already.