Tiny Core Linux

Tiny Core Base => TCB Talk => Topic started by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 03:29:48 AM

Title: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 03:29:48 AM
Hi all,

On a new HP laptop (Celeron), I'd like to remove the win10 and install TC instead.
I can disable secure boot and enable legacy boot, after which tiny core usb-boot works like a charm, but I have 2 problems:

1) I can only do usb-boot with ESC-F9 etc, I can't get it to automatically boot from USB - ie the BIOS options order doesn't get changed correctly.
With an Ubuntu boot-USB this does work. (And it failed with CorePlus64 which was said to have UEFI support).
Could it be that there is still some secure-boot going on? I read that Ubuntu made a deal with Microsoft for some keys etc.

2) TC doesn't give me access to the HD
After sudo su  fdisk -l, tc shows me only usb, not the HD, so I can't install, format, wipe the disk clean, etc.
The Ubuntu USB-boot also refused me access to the HD, saying it was 'dirty', perhaps because it was in hibernated state (I broke off the standard win10 installation on an 'accept license' button, so it could be that what I thought was 'reset' was really 'hibernate'.)

I'm considering returning the laptop to the dealer and buying another one (still a couple of days left for that).
Can someone overhere help me further?

Because I rrreally like TinyCore, so far.

Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (HP, Win10)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 03:43:22 AM
To be clear: I'm especially worried about point 1.

What I'm planning to do is: accept the Win10 install, install Ubuntu as dual,
then after that wiping the disk clean (both Win10 and Ubuntu) and install TC instead.

But if the difference between Ubuntu-UEFI boot and TC-UEFI-boot behavior is caused by some security thing in the PC, then this won't work, and I won't be able to return it to the dealer, 'coz the HD is then pretty much empty.

Any advice from you guys?

BTW, if you can suggest a more suitable forum for this question, I'd be all ears.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 02, 2017, 08:34:02 AM
I believe the issue is the uefi secure boot feature - apparently microsoft gives the oem the option to allow the user to toggle the feature at their discretion, but windows machines must must be shipped with it enabled by default.

You would need to check with the oem if you are able to toggle secure boot on your machine or not.

BTW, CorePure64 works fine with uefi boot on both windows machines (without secure boot) and mac for me.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 08:52:53 AM
What I hear you say is that you have no experience yourself with newer machines that have this secure boot option built in, correct?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 08:58:59 AM
BTW, my laptop BIOS does give me the options to disable secure boot etc. (That's how managed to USB-boot tinycore in the first place.)

But I have the strong impression that disabling that option will not be enough to allow frugal install.

I so hope that I'm wrong (and that someone on this forum knows the trick).

BTW, after USB-booting Ubuntu/UEFI a couple of times, I can no longer even USB-boot tiny core :'(
(And I can no longer disable secure-boot in the BIOS - ie it won't save, and return as 'enabled' on next boot.)

Does all of this sounds like the laptop is to blame? Or am I just not experienced enough with BIOSes etc?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 02, 2017, 09:04:11 AM
google says the following:
Quote
Follow steps below to access UEFI settings to disable legacy secure boot control in Windows 10, 8.1 and Windows 8. Note that the Secure Boot option must be set to "Disabled" or "Off" to allow you to boot from external media correctly.

Press Windows + I to open the settings charms. Click on Change PC settings at the bottom.
In Windows 8, go to General PC settings and select Advanced startup and then click on Restart now.
In Windows 8.1, go to Update and recovery from left sidebar. Then click Restart now under Advanced startup.

Now you will be presented with the Choose an option screen. Simply select Troubleshoot and then Advanced options in Troubleshoot.

In Advanced options menu, choose UEFI Firmware settings. Then click on Restart button to reboot your system in UEFI settings.

Now your PC have been booted into UEFI utility, move to boot on the top menu and here you can see the option to turn off secure boot in Windows 10. Use the arrow key to go to Secure Boot option and then press enter to select it. Use + or – to change its value.

see also: https://www.linux.com/learn/how-install-linux-windows-machine-uefi-secure-boot
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 10:05:14 AM
Yes, I've seen all that, too.
But:
1) how come Ubuntu USB was shown as top-boot-option, but CorePlus64 wasn't?
2) I've read on the internet that Ubuntu (and Fedora) made a deal with MS, to exchange certain keys etc, so that new hardware would trust Ubuntu.

So perhaps I should rephrase my question:

Has anyone on this forum managed to do any non-Ubuntu Linux install on a new laptop which has that secure-boot built in; no dual-install, but removing Windows10 and just running Linux (non-Ubuntu, non-Fedora) on the machine?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: coreplayer2 on October 02, 2017, 11:07:31 AM
AFAIK Secure Boot can be disabled within the BIOS to allow any OS install.  Secure Boot was intended only for corporate clients.  IIRC My motherboard has Secure Boot and was promptly disabled.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 11:45:10 AM
When I inspect the USB that has CorePure64 on it, I see a syslinux folder, but I don't see anything that looks like grub2, EFI or UEFI.
(In contrast, in the working Ubuntu-USB, folders with these names all over the place.)

Could it be that that is the problem?
Is there documentation that explains how EFI/UEFI/grub2 support can be added to a USB with TC on it?

Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Misalf on October 02, 2017, 12:00:51 PM
Grub2: http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,19364.msg119228.html
Syslinux: http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,20939.0.html
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 12:06:09 PM
Ok, thanks.
If I don't see an EFI folder on the USB, does that mean it is not EFI-ready?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 02, 2017, 12:30:10 PM
affirmative
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 01:36:52 PM
Ok. Thanks for all the responses so far!

The procedure for grub2 from the forum gave some error messages. Will try again later.

But one more thing I tried is this:
I used the same installer that I used to turn the Ubuntu iso to a bootable USB, and turned the CorePlus64.iso (8.2) into a bootable USB with that.
Now, because TC is a bit special with tce and so on, I didn't expect this to work perfectly, but, the USB did have an EFI folder, and that looked very much like the Ubuntu-USB.
Result: the BIOS still refuses to show that USB as top-Boot-option.
My hunch is: there is still some security thing in the hardware/BIOS that doesn't trust the TC USB enough, at least not the same way as it does the Ubuntu USB.

Is my hunch correct?
Or could there be something else going on?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 02, 2017, 01:40:46 PM
a new HP laptop (Celeron)

I wonder how you expect anyone to be able to help you properly if you do not specify what model it is exactly. And I also wonder why nobody has asked this question up until now.

What is the exact model number/model name of the laptop?

What firmware (UEFI/BIOS) version is installed? Have you installed the latest firmware already (i.e. "BIOS/UEFI update")?

How have you configured the firmware? You already said you disabled Secure Boot? What else have you configured? Have you also disabled Fastboot? And what about the legacy OpROMs?

Also, you mentioned the boot order in the firmware would not be applied correctly. Can you post a screenshot of how you have configured the boot order?

Also:

How did you create the USB stick exactly?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 02:31:02 PM
Some data:
HP Notebook, 14-bp0xx
Celeron N3060 1.60 GHz, 4GB
Bios vendor Insyde,  version F.09

There is no fastboot option (as far as I can see)
USB Boot:  <enabled>
Network Boot:  <disabled>
Legacy support:  <enabled>
Secure Boot:   <disabled>

(How can pictures be added, on this forum?)

The USBs were all created on a different, rather old Windows machine.
The Ubuntu USB was created with Universal-USB-Installer.
The TinyCore USB I originally created was done with core2usb.
The CorePure64 USB from my 'experiment' was with Universal-USB-Installer.

Is this information helpful to you?

Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 02, 2017, 04:42:10 PM
HP Notebook, 14-bp0xx

That does not seem to be the correct model name. Searching for "14-bp0xx" on Google basically does not find anything specific.

What is the actual model name?

Is there no sticker on the body somewhere?

If you do not see the model name but have the serial number of the notebook, then you could also search for the model name by entering the serial number on the HP website:

https://support.hp.com/us-en/products
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 02, 2017, 04:51:40 PM
There is no 14-bp0xx on the HP website, but there is a 14-bp000.

Again, you should be able to find out what the exact model number is if you enter the serial number on the HP website.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 04:58:52 PM
The box says 14-bp080nd, the xx stuff was what the BIOS mentioned.
I've checked for the latest BIOS for my machine on the HP support site, but that gave an error message, haha.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 02, 2017, 05:11:03 PM
"14-bp080nd":
https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/HP-14-bp000-Laptop-PC/15551432/model/17320132
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 02, 2017, 06:06:46 PM
The BIOS update is an .exe file; probably something I can run after installing windows, right? Not an 'image' that I can use in the BIOS maintenance utility.

So I guess the question now is:
What is the probability that the BIOS update will actually solve the problem?
Because if it doesn't, or something goes wrong, I may not be able to return the laptop to the dealer...

Does anyone have enough experience to give me good advice?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: NewUser on October 02, 2017, 09:38:14 PM
If the BIOS update will fix your trouble you may be able to run the update from FreeDOS. Install FreeDOS on a thumbdrive, put the .exe file there too and boot to FreeDOS.  Sometimes it doesn't work, but most times it does.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 03, 2017, 12:28:43 AM
The procedure for grub2 from the forum gave some error messages. Will try again later.

I'd say that your problem is right there - until you can use the forum grub2 or syslinux methods to make a tinycorelinux uefi boot device without errors, you are unlikely to be able to boot without errors.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 03, 2017, 12:42:55 AM
Note also that the CorePure64 iso is dual bios/uefi boot - if your machine can boot from cd/dvd, you can burn the iso and test out the uefi boot from cd/dvd.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 03:11:42 AM
Note also that the CorePure64 iso is dual bios/uefi boot - if your machine can boot from cd/dvd, you can burn the iso and test out the uefi boot from cd/dvd.

Just for my information:
The USB that was created using core2usb.exe and CorePure64.iso did not contain an EFI folder. Does that mean core2usb didn't create a correct CorePure64 dual bios/uefi bootable USB for me?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 03, 2017, 03:27:29 AM
As far as I know, core2usb is windows utility, which is not supported by tinycore.

I doubt that core2usb will produce a uefi bootable device from the CorePure64 iso.

As mentioned earlier, you could try:

* burning the CorePure64 iso to cd/dvd to test
* create a uefi bootable usb stick using the grub2 or syslinux intructions via the links provided
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 03:41:37 AM
Ok. But then still I find it suspicious that the BIOS reacts so differently to the two EFI's created by that same tool (and there I don't mean core2usb but Universal-USB-installer).
 Univ-USB-inst + Ubuntu -> BIOS shows it top of the list,
 Univ-USB-inst + CorePure64 -> BIOS puts it down the list (but USB does have an EFI folder in it).
Even if that tool disregarded the EFI support in the CorePure64 iso, and just added its own EFI folder, I would expect similar behavior by the BIOS.
Or is that too optimistic?
Can you give me some kind of scenario of what might happen there?

BTW, many thanks to all respondents so far.
Great support, guys!! Two thumbs up.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 03, 2017, 03:49:08 AM
I'm not familiar with Univ-USB-inst and anyway, the uefi support in the CorePure64 iso is only intended to work when it is burnt to cd/dvd (I presume this is easy enough to do in windows).

If you can boot ubuntu, you can easily use it to create a uefi bootable tinycore usb stick using the grub2 or syslinux instruction links.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 04:10:00 AM
Ok, I will definitely try that.

But since that means I won't be able to use the quick tools in the future anyhow, would there be a way to make the 32bit TinyCore BIOS-bootable (I mean auto-bootable, top-of-the-list in the boot-order)  ?

Or should I expect/accept that now and in the future, UEFI machines will make it practically impossible to just use BIOS-boot in that way?

Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 04:19:07 AM

What firmware (UEFI/BIOS) version is installed? Have you installed the latest firmware already (i.e. "BIOS/UEFI update")?

Just for my information:
Is it possible to give me some scenario that could explain the following:
  some tool + Ubuntu.iso -> BIOS puts it top of the list
  same tool + CorePlus64.iso -> BIOS puts it somewhere down the list, disregarding my boot-order settings in the BIOS
  an update of the BIOS software changes that different behavior
??
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 03, 2017, 04:23:59 AM
There's a tinycore tool - the tc-install extension - available in the CorePlus iso that will make a 32-bit or 64-bit legacy bios installation to hd or usb stick.

The legacy bios boot order is usually determined in the bios setup by choosing which device (hd, cd/dvd, usb stick, pxe) the bios should try to boot from first.

On my last laptop, uefi boot set the sata bus to full speed, whereas the legacy bios boot set it to a slower speed - since (I suppose) oem's now concentrate on uefi boot, you might be better to stay with that.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 04:24:37 AM
The BIOS update is an .exe file; probably something I can run after installing windows, right? Not an 'image' that I can use in the BIOS maintenance utility.

But you said Windows 10 is already installed?

So I guess the question now is:
What is the probability that the BIOS update will actually solve the problem?

Why don't you just read the release notes:

Quote from: https://support.hp.com/us-en/drivers/selfservice/swdetails/hp-14-bp000-laptop-pc/15551432/model/17320132 /swItemId/ob-192275-1

- Fixes an intermittent issue where the keyboard does not function properly after the system resumes from sleep (S3) mode.

?

 ::)

The BIOS update is an .exe file; probably something I can run after installing windows, right? Not an 'image' that I can use in the BIOS maintenance utility.

It seems like the .exe is an archive, which apparently can be extracted via 7-Zip and contains .bin files, which according to the instructions on the HP website is the kind of file type that is required to update through the firmware:

https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c00042629

Because if it doesn't, or something goes wrong, I may not be able to return the laptop to the dealer...

You are on your own with this, or maybe ask your dealer to do it for you.

I'd say that your problem is right there

No, I don't think so.

First of all: He has enabled legacy mode in the firmware and now tries to create a UEFI USB stick, this is just wrong.

You would want to create a UEFI USB stick if you would have disabled legacy mode and not when it is enabled.

Also: He still has not posted a photo of his boot order settings. It's very likely that something is not configured properly there, especially because HP firmware usually allows to specify the boot order for legacy mode and UEFI mode separately.

@ YoupMelon: Why haven't you posted a photo of your firmware boot order settings yet?

Also:

If you really want to create a UEFI USB stick, make sure that legacy mode is disabled and that the stick is formatted as GPT (not MBR) and FAT32 (not NTFS, not ext4) and read this:

https://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/csm-good-bad-ugly.html#creating-media

 ;)

Anyway, just post a photo of your firmware boot order settings and you are increasing your chance of solving your problem.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 03, 2017, 04:29:49 AM
..that the stick is formatted as GPT (not MBR) and FAT32 (not NTFS, not ext4)

..that's what the grub2 instructions, referred to earlier, say.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 04:39:57 AM
The legacy bios boot order is usually determined in the bios setup by choosing which device (hd, cd/dvd, usb stick, pxe) the bios should try to boot from first.

Just to give you an idea of what I'm facing:
My BIOS gives me two orders to edit, an UEFI-list and a legacy one.
Then it says that UEFI order takes precedence over legacy order...

But even when I put 'USB' top of the list in both orders; when it comes to booting, OS Manager is taken as the default.  :-\
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 04:43:40 AM
Anyway, just post a photo of your firmware boot order settings and you are increasing your chance of solving your problem.

How can I post a photo on this forum?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 04:46:53 AM
The BIOS update is an .exe file; probably something I can run after installing windows, right? Not an 'image' that I can use in the BIOS maintenance utility.

But you said Windows 10 is already installed?
No. The machine is Win10 prepared, but I broke of the install (it insists that I accept a licence, so I'd prefer to wipe Win10 of the machine without installing, if possible.)
Is that a bad idea, in your opinion?

Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 04:50:16 AM
Again, GPT @ FAT32 would be correct for native UEFI, but that would require him do disable legacy boot mode in the firmware.

He has enabled legacy boot mode in the firmware though, so he would need MBR @ NTFS/FAT32.

I could imagine that this might actually be the issue.

Legacy boot mode enabled = CSM (Compatibility Support Module) = BIOS mode = MBR @ NTFS/FAT32

Legacy boot mode disabled = native UEFI mode = GPT @ FAT32

Anyway, just have him post a photo of his firmware boot order settings. He is complaining about his firmware boot order settings not working properly, but does not post a photo of it, that is of no help to solve the issue.

Just to give you an idea of what I'm facing:
My BIOS gives me two orders to edit, an UEFI-list and a legacy one.

See, just what I am saying:

Also: He still has not posted a photo of his boot order settings. It's very likely that something is not configured properly there, especially because HP firmware usually allows to specify the boot order for legacy mode and UEFI mode separately.

 :)

Will you post a photo now?

But even when I put 'USB' top of the list in both orders; when it comes to booting, OS Manager is taken as the default.  :-\

Are you referring to a "Windows Boot Manager" entry in the boot order?

This is the boot loader that is being installed into the UEFI for UEFI OS installations.

It might be possible that your firmware allows you to edit those entries, but unless you post a photo of it, nobody will be able to tell you.

It can also be done via software though, see for example:

https://www.lifewire.com/change-the-efi-boot-order-efibootmgr-4028027

But you would need to try this yourself.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 05:00:53 AM
I'd say that your problem is right there

No, I don't think so.

First of all: He has enabled legacy mode in the firmware and now tries to create a UEFI USB stick, this is just wrong.

You would want to create a UEFI USB stick if you would have disabled legacy mode and not when it is enabled.

What you're saying is that after enabling legacy mode, it should be possible to get the BIOS to take the USB with ordinary 32bit TinyCore as default, right?

At this moment I can boot it, but only after selecting it down the list during boot. It works like a charm that way.
Getting TC as default boot-option is what doesn't seem to work.
And that's why I'm afraid for some security lock-in.

From the release notes that you posted, I'd say the fix won't help.
My keys work fine when editing the BIOS, including the number keys (I have changed the delay-seconds successfully, couple of time.)

Many thanks for that rodbooks ref! I'm reading it right now.

BTW, both in the UEFI boot order as well as in the legacy mode boot order, I have 'USB stick' top of the list in both, and it has saved those settings.



Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 05:09:22 AM
What you're saying is that after enabling legacy mode, it should be possible to get the BIOS to take the USB with ordinary 32bit TinyCore as default, right?

Yes.

At this moment I can boot it, but only after selecting it down the list during boot. It works like a charm that way.
Getting TC as default boot-option is what doesn't seem to work.

I already told you what your issue is, it's this: https://www.lifewire.com/change-the-efi-boot-order-efibootmgr-4028027

Unfortunately you ignored it.

BTW, both in the UEFI boot order as well as in the legacy mode boot order, I have 'USB stick' top of the list in both, and it has saved those settings.

You are very likely to be able to fix the issue by simply removing the checkbox from the UEFI boot order in the firmware settings, i.e. essentially disabling the UEFI boot order list, i.e. also disabling the "Windows Boot Manager" entry.

Anyway, I already told you to post a photo of it. Unfortunately you ignored it several times. This will have been the last time I asked.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 03, 2017, 05:14:21 AM
No, I don't think so.

First of all: He has enabled legacy mode in the firmware and now tries to create a UEFI USB stick, this is just wrong.

You would want to create a UEFI USB stick if you would have disabled legacy mode and not when it is enabled.

The grub2 instructions are for a dual legacy bios/uefi boot usb stick...
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 05:26:03 AM
@ YoupMelon:

I don't know why I am still helping you, but anyway: Just disable the UEFI boot order as outlined in the following photos by either selecting it and then pressing F5 to disable it (and F10 to save it) or by removing the checkbox from it or by setting it to disabled (depending on what it looks like on your model, which nobody of us can tell unfortunately since you repeatedly refuse to post a photo), see:

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/156555i5281FAE4548751D1?v=1.0
https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/138523i8F2B154B3E535296?v=1.0
https://support.hp.com/doc-images/188/c03094732.jpg

Anyway, from now on: No photo, no help.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 05:32:34 AM
Anyway, I already told you to post a photo of it. Unfortunately you ignored it several times. This will have been the last time I asked.

I have no idea how to post a photograph on this forum.

Will the following help?

====
Screen titel: InsydeH20 Setup Utility
 tab:   System Configuration

Boot Options
Post Hotkey Delay (sec)   <5>
USB Boot   <Enabled>
Network Boot    <Disabled>
Network Boot Protocol     <IPv4 (Legacy)>
Legacy Support    <Enabled>
Secure Boot     <Disabled>
Platform Key    <Enrolled>
Pending Action    <None>
Clear All Secure Boot Keys
Load HP Factory Default Keys

UEFI Boot Order
  USB Diskette on Key/USB Hard Disk
  USB CD/DVD Rom Drive
  ! Network Adapter
> OS boot Manager

Legacy Boot Order
  USB Diskette on Key/USB Hard Disk
  USB CD/DVD ROM Drive
  ! Network Adapter
> Notebook Hard Drive

=======

Note the two '>'s in front of the Boot Order entries.
On the actual screen, these are little blue triangles.
I can change the order of the lines, (and see the changes back after reboot etc),
but I can't remove or move these >'s in front of the two lines indicated.
If I move the lines up, the perps move with them.
Also, I can't disable the UEFI order, and the help-text explicitly says the UEFI order will take precedence over the Lecagy Boot Order.
Disabling indiviual options is also not possible.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 05:42:45 AM
I have no idea how to post a photograph on this forum.

Just click on "Attachments and other options" when creating a forum post.

Also, I can't disable the UEFI order

Why not?

Does the GUI look like this with the checkboxes in front of them:

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/156555i5281FAE4548751D1?v=1.0

?

Is one of the checkboxes grayed out? If yes: Which one?

Have you made sure the following setting looks like this:

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/161186iDD38D2C965242991?v=1.0

?

Also, what do you have your Option ROM Launch Policy set to? Is it set to "All UEFI" as shown in the following photo:

https://h30491.www3.hp.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/5382i50FA30D3969481F1?v=1.0

?

If yes, then try the following: Set it to to Legacy, then save and exit the BIOS, then have the PC reboot and re-enter the BIOS.

Can you now disable the UEFI boot order?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Misalf on October 03, 2017, 05:49:06 AM
There is no "post image" feature apart from using the  [ img=... ]  bb code to post a link of an image hosted elsewhere.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 05:52:03 AM
There is no "post image" feature apart from using the  [ img=... ]  bb code to post a link of an image hosted elsewhere.

But he can attach an image to a post?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Misalf on October 03, 2017, 05:55:29 AM
In theory, but the file size might be an issue.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 05:57:50 AM
In theory, but the file size might be an issue.

Then just upload the image to your preferred image hoster and post the link here, nothing that can not be solved with a quick Google search.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 06:05:03 AM
I've attached a picture. (Hopefully)
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 06:06:14 AM
Note the two '>'s in front of the Boot Order entries.
I can change the order of these things, (and see the changes back after reboot etc),
but I can't remove or move these >'s in front of the two lines indicated.
Also, I can't remove lines, or disable them.

Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 06:13:07 AM
Two more pictures
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 06:21:06 AM
I've attached a picture. (Hopefully)

Thanks. Yes, we can see the photos.

Unfortunately though you did not take a photo of the whole screen. In particular it would be interesting what the bottom of the screen says when you highlight one of the boot entries, because that's where they usually show the keys that you can use to alter settings, i.e. pressing F5 to disable a boot entry for example.

Can you please attach a photo of the entire screen, ideally with the "OS Boot Manager" entry being highlighted?

Also, is there any screen in the BIOS that has a setting for "Option ROMs" or "OpROMs" or something like that? If yes: Can you also post a photo of that one?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 06:29:59 AM
PS: Sometimes the available keys to press and the help text is also being shown on the right side instead of at the bottom.

Just post a photo showing the entire screen with "OS Boot Manager" highlighted. Ideally also one with "USB Diskette on Key/USB Hard Disk" highlighted.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 06:47:36 AM
Photos of the entire screen are too large to be attached, so I have to cut and paste a bit. The help text at the right is the same for OS boot Manager and for USB Diskette etc. See attachment.
There's nowhere any mention of opROM.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 06:56:51 AM
Update:
1) I have disabled Legacy mode, and at the same time disabled Security Boot.
With that, I can't even boot TinyCore from USB - it doesn't show in the list of boot options anymore.

2) I'm currently playing around with boot orders from Ubuntu / efibootmgr

Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: pq5190362 on October 03, 2017, 07:08:56 AM
I think I might know what the issue is now:

First of all, it must be possible to remove that arrow in front of "OS Boot Manager", otherwise there would not be screenshots on the Internet like the following one:

http://i.imgur.com/1tR5XGJ.jpg

Second:

I think that arrow might be there because the MS Windows installation has "Fast Startup" (aka "Hiberboot") enabled, which prevents the PC from properly shutting down. It might be possible that disabling it and then rebooting (not shutting down) the PC might remove the arrow in front of "OS Boot Manager". The following page explains how to do it:

https://sites.google.com/site/easylinuxtipsproject/windows#TOC-Disable-Fast-Startup-no-loss-it-s-misleading-anyway-

Third:

If I were you, I would probably also try to highlight "OS Boot Manager" and press every key available on the keyboard, one after another, to see if it removes the arrow in front of "OS Boot Manager". If it doesn't, I would also try doing the same while "USB Diskette on Key/USB Hard Disk" is highlighted to see if it moves the arrow to be in front of "USB Diskette on Key/USB Hard Disk".
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 03, 2017, 08:30:27 AM
I have disabled Legacy mode, and at the same time disabled Security Boot.
With that, I can't even boot TinyCore from USB - it doesn't show in the list of boot options anymore.
..and it will not show up until you burn the CorePure64 iso to cd/dvd or follow the grub2 or syslinux uefi boot instructions

Quote
I'm currently playing around with boot orders from Ubuntu / efibootmgr
..so please use ubuntu to create a tinycore uefi boot usb stick following the tinycore grub2/syslinux instructions...
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 03, 2017, 12:19:39 PM
Yes, that's one of the things that I will try next.

Once again thanks for all respondents!
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 04, 2017, 03:11:07 PM
Am I correct in thinking that tc-install.tcz doesn't deal with making a USB bootable?
That is, it won't add a bootloader, nor (U)EFI support, etc?

Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Juanito on October 04, 2017, 04:22:00 PM
tc-install will make a bootable USB stick, but only for legacy bios boot.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 04, 2017, 05:46:39 PM
Hmm. I've used tc-install to create a bootable USB, but in legacy mode the USB is not recognized. Does that mean I've made some mistake with tc-install?
Or is the legacy mode of my hardware to blame?

Is there a way to check whether the USB should work, other than boot and test?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: Misalf on October 04, 2017, 06:02:48 PM
You could try with qemu but I'd try another PC.
Not every bootable stick boots on every PC. Sometimes different boot loaders work better, sometimes others. Though, syslinux was the most reliable for me so far, IIRC.

tc-install uses syslinux.
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: polikuo on October 04, 2017, 11:39:31 PM
Hmm. I've used tc-install to create a bootable USB, but in legacy mode the USB is not recognized. Does that mean I've made some mistake with tc-install?
Or is the legacy mode of my hardware to blame?

Is there a way to check whether the USB should work, other than boot and test?

How exactly did you create that USB drive ?
What options did you choose ?
Did you wipe out the USB ?
Did you deploy a bootloader ?
Did you mark partition as bootable ?
Title: Re: Frugal install on new laptop (UEFI-BIOS trouble?)
Post by: YoupMelon on October 05, 2017, 06:46:14 AM
Never mind; I'm almost positive now that legacy boot doesn't quite work as it should on my hardware. No big deal - I will dig into EFI and UEFI.