Tiny Core Linux
Off-Topic => Off-Topic - Tiny Core Lounge => Topic started by: floppy on August 20, 2011, 10:41:43 AM
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hello,
the is a 14y old boy nearby our home. his father said to me he is interested in different things and especially computer and I should made few recommendations for developping his son knowledge.
So, I should give him some informations how he can seriously play around with his PC. My idea is to
a) install TCL in parallel to his XP
b) show to him the forum, and possibilities for extensions of TCL
c) bring him in contact with linux user clubs here in our town
d) developping something? drivers? what? where are the needs from a beginner?
Do you have any recommendation where a 14y boy can start in linux OSs? (programming!.. not dating/chatting and messing around with a web-browser).
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Give him Python
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http://en.literateprograms.org (http://en.literateprograms.org) any use ,
eg
http://en.literateprograms.org/Category:Hello_World (http://en.literateprograms.org/Category:Hello_World)
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I'd say club him for every time he says the word linux. Don't help him to install any drivers or he will waste half of his life with crap like that.
Show him how to build a house out of wood instead.
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Hello
i would show the kid "Imagine Logo" tool.
Also show him "microworlds"
and 3d Elica logo.
and some games
V
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If you give him anything too difficult, too soon, he may give up.
It may be a good idea to install Tinycore with him there, and explain what you are doing, so he will understand a lot of it. If he understands it, he should enjoy it.
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I agree with dubcore - start him out with a "Hello, World!" program in a couple of different languages, maybe C and shell script. I'd avoid starting him out with anything graphical right at the beginning. Maybe not drivers just yet.
I'd be interested in any additional advice in this thread as I have a couple of twelve-year-old boys who see a computer only in terms of games and I'd like to get them interested in the basics of network setup, programming, databases, etc. They are home-schooled, so I'd like to start out easy and advance as far as time takes us.
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Hi Lee
C's not too bad a way to go. There are many on-line tutorials for C (and other languages) that provide
enough background in about a dozen short chapters to get you started. The contents in this link
http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/cclass/notes/top.html are based on K&Rs "The C Programming Language".
A very good tutorial on pointers, arrays, strings, and memory allocation can be found here
http://pweb.netcom.com/~tjensen/ptr/pointers.htm
When choosing a language, you may want to consider the ability to set up compile environments to
generate code to run under both Windows and Linux, to aid them in learning how to write portable
code.
Another possibility is to look into microprocessor or micro-controller development boards. Many of
the chip makers offer these boards at fairly reasonable prices. Some boards even have audio, network
and USB connectors. Just a thought, in case you want to take them down the embedded route.
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K&R... I actually have a copy of "the new testament" from back when they still had to have the disclaimer "Based on the Draft-Proposed ANSI C". Someone once gave me a Xeroxed copy of the "old testament" but I think I pitched it when I bought the new one.
Developmment boards... embeddable SBC's are a great place to start. I had tons of fun with a Z-80 board a few years back but I don't have it any more.
Portability ... ANSI C is great for that. ...and doesn't the gcc have flags to produce whatever kind of output you want?
My big challenge is to get these guys -interested- in programming before they realize that girls don't all have cooties, 'cause at that point they'll be lost. :)
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Hi Lee
Portability ... ANSI C is great for that. ...and doesn't the gcc have flags to produce whatever kind of output you want?
Actually those flags are for producing code for different processors, not operating systems. For
that you want a cross compiler, see http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,10997.0.html
The trick is to think up a project that will hold their interest while stimulating their ability to solve
problems. While it won't hold their interest, here's an example. I wanted to add a readout to my
heating system to tell me how much fuel I'd consumed so I wouldn't have to check the tank with
the dipstick. I built a board with four 7-segment displays, a couple of switches, and a PIC16c55
processor. The PIC has 512 bytes EPROM, 24 bytes RAM, 20 I/O pins, and an 8 bit counter with an
8 bit prescaler. The program multiplexes and encodes the displays segments, polls the switches,
monitors the fuel pump, keeps track of elapsed time, and computes fuel used. The integer math
routines I wrote calculate time and fuel usage to one decimal place. There are 6 different nozzle
sizes to choose from for the fuel computation. This is a RISC processor with 33 instructions and
a two level stack.
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The integer math routines I wrote calculate time and fuel usage to one decimal place. There are 6 different nozzle sizes to choose from for the fuel computation. This is a RISC processor with 33 instructions and a two level stack.
That just screams "FORTH" except for the half-K of eprom.
Perhaps an index for their gaming cards - monster cards are cool and maybe they could work up to displaying a scan of each card. That might keep their attention. Hmmmm...
Floppy - Does your neighbor have any hobbies that might be used to help him learn programming?
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Floppy - Does your neighbor have any hobbies that might be used to help him learn programming?
He is back from holiday in 1 week; I have to sit down with him and see what he does/want to do. I will ckeck which hobbies could lead to programming (at least I know something: he is not programming missiles to blow up my house..;-). Additionally his father asked him to put his son in a PC training course in the automotive company I am working. So, I have to check this, too.
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Hi Lee
That just screams "FORTH" except for the half-K of eprom.
No high level language used for that project, just good old fashioned assembly language.
Perhaps an index for their gaming cards - monster cards are cool and maybe they could work up to displaying a scan of each card. That might keep their attention. Hmmmm...
That suggests a simple database program. An opportunity to learn structures, linked lists (single or
doubly), disk I/O, console I/O, and sorting. Maybe skip linked lists at first and start with an array of
pointers to keep it simple. That way you only need to swap pointers in the array when sorting.
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just good old fashioned assembly language.
Oh, that is -so- 1970's! :) ...and that seemingly pitiful little dribble of eprom space is room for a lot of progam in assembly.
a simple database program. An opportunity to learn structures, linked lists etc etc
The very thing. It just needs something they're already involved in to keep it interesting - hence the monster cards. Perhaps a good time to start them on the ideas of "requirements" and logical design and all that good non-coding stuff, too. :P I think maybe I'll start on this tonight... Its close enough to "back to school" time. ::)
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The only reason I got deep into all that computer stuff is because my mother didn't want me to "play with the computer" longer than half an hour per week (later per day), so I forced myself to first read some books on it, in order to use my time with the computer more efficiently :D
Moderation is always the key (I didn't have it).
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Hi Lee
Oh, that is -so- 1970's! ...and that seemingly pitiful little dribble of eprom space is room for a lot of progam in assembly.
Considering that many operations have to pass through the accumulator, and the limited choice of
instructions, it can fill pretty fast. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_microcontroller#Instruction_set and
scroll down to 12-bit PIC instruction set to see.
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Well now. Back on topic...
I did it. I introduced the twelve-year-olds and the ten-year-old to the fine art of computer programming using...
( go ahead and flame me, I can take it! )
BASIC (*)
I had thought to use vice.tcz and start with C64 BASIC because I still have all the references for it and because it insists that every line be numbered. The line numbers were the primary reason I chose BASIC - I felt that, for a beginner, having each line labeled with a (sequential) line number and the flow of execution closely tied to the sequence of line numbers would make it much easier to get a handle on all of the iteration, branching and subroutines (all of the flow-of-control).
Alas, vice.tce is not yet in the 4.x repo so I had to settle for smallbasic. Of course, I -don't- have all the references for smallbasic and line labels -aren't- required, -don't- have to be numeric nor even, if numeric labels are used, do they have to be in sequential order! That certainly makes it harder to see the advantage of using BASIC, but I have to admit that, other than for the complete novice, smallbasic is a much nicer BASIC than the C64 one.
Anyhow the kids have now got an inkling of the concepts of I/O, branching logic, iteration and simple data structures. But that's not the best part...
They're -excited- about it! That one thing is what makes me think I've done something right. This is going to be fun.
The next steps will be to just let them run wild with small basic for a few days, maybe learn about file i/o. Then we can start on a simple application - probably a data storage and retrieval tool ("database" is too big a word for what I have in mind).
Floppy, have you talked with the neighbor boy? Found out what his interests are? How much he already knows - or thinks he knows - about PCs?
Lee
(*) Hey, I could have picked Mumps! I seriously considered that (but only for about 5 seconds). :)
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It never hurts (well, usually not) to just try stuff. I brought over vice.tcz and alsa-oss.tcz from the 3.x repo and vice seems to work. Now I have to decide if it is worth fooling with it at this point.
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Hi Lee
There's nothing wrong with BASIC for what you are doing. Programming concepts tend to be
language agnostic.
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Thanks for those encouraging words, Rich.
You're right of course that the concepts are independent of the language. Yet I'm kind afraid they'll fall in love with their first programming language and/or develop the bad habits that are so easy to develop in BASIC. Not that they couldn't develop bad habits in other language... to counterfeit another phrase: "A real non-programmer can write BASIC code in any language".
Lee
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Yes
honestly take alookat Logo programmng. Free tools like "Imagine Logo". A child will pick this up instantly and be able to create computer graphics.
Then show them "Elica Logo" which again is surprisingly simple to get stunning graphics programming capability.
It takes some understanding of how the owner has completely abstracted away any need for people to understand
object orientated techniques. Instead, a new comer just being introduced to Elica woul probably get right into
the ideas behind it. ELica uses the Logo language but in a more powerful way to produce 3D graphics.
Elica can also do most of GUI windows programming. It has many widgets and controls so it's possible to get right into making simple but effective win32 programs for the desktop. Personally i only got so far with Elica but was able to grasp the notion of how 3D programming is done in the tool. There creator told me that there tends to be issues with people from different programming backgrounds because they think Elica is "too" simple and tendto overcomplicate the issues of object orientated principles...but when Elica is explained with the good email help you can begin to see the principles of designing a 3D program. You can then also continually look atthe 800 examples in the help section and learn by demonstration.
Elica does not have a hierarchy in command listing order. Logo can have commands in any order. True each command has a syntax, but routines and structure is loose.
I think it would be perfect for young people getting into programming because you see immediate results. The actual power of Elica, in the right hands, is very high.
personally, i am a big fan of coding or programming but i am doing moreand more of system "batch" things and general up keep of operating systems and scripting. Chron jobs and sometimes makros. The kind of scrips that
belong to a host tool, for example, verysimple SQL commands and general things like that.
For your interest, there is also Limnor tool which is a win32 programming tool which is completely codeless. There is never a single line of code seen.It is quite powerful and good tutorials exist. However thiskind of tool isn't exactly commonplace at all. If your youngsters need introductions to proper scripting and thereality of computer coding
then Limnor may throw people off track. Currently there are just over 3200 computer programming languages in the world............. and i imagine a tiny tiny amount are codeless. I know of only about 10 codeless tools.
Thanks
V.
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Hi Lee
Yet I'm kind afraid they'll fall in love with their first programming language and/or develop the bad habits that are so easy to develop in BASIC.
I don't know about the version your running, but I believe nowadays BASIC supports call statements.
So tell your kids "no goto's allowed", at least not to or between subroutines. The best way to move
them to a different language is to create a situation that offers a path to something they want. For
example, faster program execution. Try to give them something that BASIC does not handle easily
or very well.
@cast-fish: Abstraction can be a wonderful thing but it comes at a price. In this particular case it gives
you the opportunity to not learn about what's going on behind the scenes of that abstraction, like how
is that pushbutton made, or how do they make that cube look like it's rotating.
@Lee: By showing them how an ASCII to integer routine works you can teach them recursion. Showing
them integer to ASCII will expose them to the modulo operator, which makes a nice stepping stone
to array indexes that wrap around automatically. For extra credit, do those same indexes to a power
of 2 without using the modulo operator.
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Elica looks like an MS windows executable, which is not always a bad thing, but right now I need something that I can run on all the boxes in my basement "computer lab" - and I only have one truly "working" windows box in the entire house.
But beyond the practicality issues, I'm not convinced that Logo is the way to go for kids in this age group. I've played with Logo a bit myself over the years, though I admit I've probably never given it the consideration it deserves, and found that the whole turtle graphics idea (*) is fun but not hugely useful beyond learning the simplest concepts of programming.
For the very youngest of budding programmers, the immediate visual feedback of the graphical output is better than character based output - but I don't know if I'm ready to start my youngest (5 - 8 years old) ones on any kind of programming yet.
The 10 - 12 year olds are just (I think) able to get the idea of abstract data, distinct from its representation as character or graphical output, I'm leaning toward the character based approach and maybe having them learn how to build simple graphs the hard way. That will reinforce some of the mathematics we'll be doing this year as well.
(*) It certainly looks like Elica has gone beyond just "turtle graphics"!
Just looked at vice again... and realized that the 25 x 40 character screen is just a hair smaller than a business card on my monitor. Still a very neat toy, but I think I'll stick with smallbasic for the kids until they're ready to move on to bigger and better forms of torture programming.
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I kind of want them to go down that "goto" road, just once or twice. Then it'll be their own idea to never go there again. ;)
And you're right again, Rich, it will be features that lead them to other languages - the speed of a compiled language, the data structure capabilities of C, the utility of shell scripts, database access, the sheer horror of pointers with several-layer-deep indirection. ;)
As for recursion - Michael already learned about stack overflow - it was a "gosub" thing. If you're interested in such things, smallbasic's return stack capacity is 256 elements. That gave me the opening to describe how the stack works. Oh... you mean intentional recursion... we didn't get into that, except to mention that there is such a thing and it is sometimes useful.
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Yes,
very interesting to read and see the funny comment(s) like "torture"......but that kind of humour
actually touches on a serious point.
You want to be able to nurture kids into having a true buzz about computers. You want them to feel
some passion for it and drive and enthusiasm. Ok, it may start out as a hobby, but you want to be certain
that the enjoyment level is high enough that the learning then comes naturally and with delight.
Just because somebody is passionate about a hobby or interest does not always mean they are able
to convey that passion over into others and i think that's where speaking to teachers and educational people
really helps.
Logo and "imagine logo secondary" are educational programming tools and not production tools. Although they could
equally fit each role. You get the feeling that this is how the tools have been designed. They are designed to
be interesting and yield quik results that satisfy and can promote further learning.
It's real interesting is this http://www.r-e-m.co.uk/logo/?K=SECONDARY (http://www.r-e-m.co.uk/logo/?K=SECONDARY)
shows types of software teaching tools about systems for younger people.
With computers being so widespread these days, and handheld computers with cheap apps (phones) to widespread
internet terminals and usage....... it's wise to assume that's computers are pretty much embedded into major aspects of
ones everyday life. Kids therefor are growing right into this embedding which is very different from my upbringing.
They say now it's not unusual for 6 year olds to be telling adults how to use java cell phones or i-phones
or indeed PC's and the like. Kids are already "into" computers because they hold one in their hand. They are far more
"imprinted" with this technology than anything close to my upbringing.
What i mean to say is that kids are genuinely "imprinted" with computing now from reading age upwards. It's something
they already really know about and enjoy. ALthough not everybody is so lucky and hence inventions like the Raspberry pi
computer are to bring computers into the hands of everybody. I live in a large city and can't believe the proliferation of
computing in society now.
PEople need to know some raw facts about a diciplin like personal computing before they embark on the lower end theory
of operating systems and computers and code. For example, Debian Linux Computer operating system BASE is
40 million lines of code. A full Linux installation like that with desktops and tools maybe more than 80 million lines of code. Apparently to print out win32 takes a shipping pallette of those blocks of A4 paper (copying paper.)
Tinycore is about 10 thousand lines is it?
I have used 3d programming tools which give you 3D results in 5 to 10 lines of code.
That's 3d graphics creations which are essentially what any kids will be interested in. There are such visual teaching tools as ALICE 3D for kids learning 3D graphics programming skills. These are simply excellent and can't be over-stated.
http://www.alice.org/ (http://www.alice.org/)
Essentially people should understand the nature of computer coding and while it's prolofic, also understand how
much of todays approaches have learned from history and are now geared towards abstracting away "coding".
This "abstracting away" is putting the computing diciplin into a more generalized interest-group for the masses now. I feel that "coding" is something adults need to step around very carefully with youngsters. The reason i say that is because computing is such a
widespread diciplin that coding is only a fraction of that diciplin. Coding is by no means a large proportion of the computing
diciplin. It's an "area" of computing. Kids have a huge arena of computing diciplins to choose from in life...it's really vast and
many many many of those diciplins are not concerning "coding" at all. All i want to say is that for adults trying to help younger people learn the "raw" tools of the trade is a very good idea. IT should just be done in a very careful manner to help nurture
the continuing natural interest the youngster has.
i hope this helps out someway
V.
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Imho, the discussion of what programming language he should use is rather academic.
If he really wants to get into programming and hacking the best thing you can do, is find him some kind of tutor. A person he can turn to, if he can't figure out, what's going wrong. Someone who will also take his time not just find a missing ";", but also for example explains why you shouldn't do all the work in a gui-thread. Anyone I know ran into this trap...
The choice of OS and programming will be made by the tutor indirectly, a guy who's doing C/C++ exclusively all day just can't help with Python or Java problems.
Just my 2c,
SvOlli
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As a first poster of this question, I would like to thanks everybody for all proposal: I see that everybody here wants to do its best for making young people (and the next generation) interested in a smart actrivity (not banker.. except I would apologize if a banker is making extensions for free of charge here). So, for the people who had questions to me, wait a bit, I will answer as soo as I can.
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I certainly agree with cast-fish that there are different levels of programming just as there are strata of computer usage scenarios. Putting together a complex email filter in MS Outlook might be considered "programming" and indeed I suppose it is, but on a different level than writing a device driver or something like that.
I want to expose my kids to programming at many different levels and, remembering back to the excitement I felt when I first started (*), I want to start them out -about- the same way I started out - with a simple but useful language that (as luck would have it) translates easily to other languages as one moves on. There are probably many good choices. Basic seems to be working for us.
As for the torture part... Our home schooling routines are pretty relaxed but I worry that sometimes the kids want them to be a little -too- relaxed. I have to keep it fun, as I firmly believe that's how learning happens, but I can't let it be all "fun and games" - I'll have to guide them into the harder stuff, but only when they're ready.
(*) I was 19 or 20, not 12, when I first started to learn programming.
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I just downloaded and compiled UCB logo 6.0 and my eight-year-old daughter just loves it.
The older ones are still enjoying smallbasic - but now they want to play with logo, too. :)
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In 1983 I exited the East L.A. Gang Banger scene
and started Kids Computer Kamp - free PCs for Kids
we teach in Barrios, Ghettos, Juvenile Facilities
and even (don't faint) to straight A kids.
Over the years, we've given away several 1000 PCs - always 100% free
and always - 100% built by the kids themselves.
There are 9 basic labs starting with the really fun one:
The kid gets to rip apart a broken desktop that
won't boot anyway.
We have a pile of parts - most tested so we know what hard drives are shot
and to start the lab, after giving them a screw driver
I take a hard drive - hold it out and drop it on the floor
and tell them - YOU CAN'T BREAK THESE PCs - THEY ARE ALREADY DEAD
(donated gear we pick up)
Yes - its possible that one or 2 bits of equipment
might have had some life in them
but usually we fill these cases - the ones for the first lab
with known dead motherboards and drives
and the kids get to rip em apart - oh the joy
...then at 4pm we give them a triple espresso
tell them to keep the screwdriver - take it home
and operate on their father's PC (kidding)
Phase 2 - they put it all back in the case
and have to do it in under 20 minutes
then move on to a functional PC
repeat - and configure
BIOS
FDISK
FORMAT (old DOS 3.3 - but could use Linux as we are switching to that THANKS TO TINY CORE - YEAH TEAM)
if they get a C: prompt in under 20 minutes and pass the lab
they go to the parts pile - rustle up the ram, a CPU, motherboard etc.
a drive, CD/DVD - whatever is there
and build one and take it home.
We have a little joke: we either have to bury it as hazmat - or give it to the children.
We always serve pizza in the labs
and have served all kinds of kids.
You asked "WHERE SHOULD MY KID START?"
At Kids Computer Kamp its always that lab first
so we know - absolutely positive
they will never fear a computer repair
they will never fear any new challenge with computers
and they will often innovate and make all kinds of things
I have seen a kid take a cordless phone
and a am/fm radio and make a tracking device
and plenty of other strange things come out of those labs
We use cutting wheels to reshape cases,
coolers - name it - and the kids have a blast
AFTER the KCK 101 lab
we get em into networking
50 ways to connect 1 - 2 - 3 - 5 - 10 - 20 PCs
and then get them into the various applications
office, image processing, CAD/CAM etc.
Then onward to web design - html - javascript
Then on to setting up an Apache Server
buying a domain, learning to configure a little PERL CGI to get some backend processing,
selling a wifi signal to neighbors (a favorite of mine as it puts immediate cash in their pocket),
getting a paypal account, and then doing the old job search - client search because these kids are hot to trot
So...it all starts with a couple of milk crates and a sheet of plywood and a power source with a few screwdrivers
Its a great after school program - a lot of latch key kids out there
and the labs can be hosted in a garage, in a driveway, on the tailgate of a pickup
anywhere
In this century, we believe that every kid should be able to build a PC from parts in a bench in under 20 minutes and install Windows and .... oooops....that was last century
In this century they should be able to install and run Tiny Core (what was I thinking?)
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I tried STAR LOGO...
it appears to be an ok programming environment. Kind of specific to
a certain area.
I want to find good software tools. it's just a hobby of mine hence
this tinycore.
Yes. Good software is rare. Finding it, is even more rare.
^_^
V.
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Programming's most basic concepts might be language agnostic (certainly, the electrical engineering part is; you can't have logic without and, or, & not; bit-shifts and math are omnipresent as well...), but you'll definitely get a hugely different perspective depending on which language you learn.
Assembly (or machine code, for the daring!) is the only way to really get 100% of your computer's speed, and talk to the hardware directly.
C++ is the de facto standard of industry, and just a step away from C, which means you get closer to the metal without sacrificing higher level control.
Java is rather bloated and verbose, but its large platform-independent libraries are quite useful.
Python is slow as a snail compared to all of the above, but it has such pretty syntax that programming time is cut down by orders of magnitude.
Lisp has a difficult learning curve, perhaps, but it provides the most ungodly amount of programming control, and has enough implementations that you can pick and choose your compiler vs interpreter, typed vs untyped, and other various aspects of your feature set.
And, of course, there are other scripting/programming languages, if you want to be more technical/practical -- HTML, PHP, and other web tech; Perl, of course; shell scripting; etc. etc. IMHO, I'd rather have learned that list of programming languages, in that order (not counting the extra scripting/prog'ing langs I mentioned, since you learn some amount of that just by spending too much time on the computer :P). Of course, I've only learned Java and Python so far, and am working on C++/Lisp (Clojure, at least) as is.
So while language agnostic concepts are behind everything, I don't think anybody can get away with saying that programming in assembly and programming in Common Lisp are the same experience, especially as a first language!
EDIT: And of course, learning basic digital electronics (logic gates, flip flops, boolean algebra, etc.) is an absolute must, either directly before or after the first programming language. Experimenting with hardware, whether it be microcontrollers or building a PC from parts, is a plus.
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Ehy floppy, I found this page and I immediately thinking of you, look at this, the results are interesting http://www.happynerds.net/view/linux (http://www.happynerds.net/view/linux)
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Vinnie
some of your list of programming tools are real interesting.
Scatch looks interesting.
V.
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He has to be about 16 by now.
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:)