WelcomeWelcome | FAQFAQ | DownloadsDownloads | WikiWiki

Author Topic: starterpacks should be .tcz  (Read 5533 times)

Offline Guy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1089
starterpacks should be .tcz
« on: May 13, 2011, 12:44:24 AM »
Prepacks should be tcz. I would like the Tiny Core to look into this seriously. Following are some reasons.

1. If the prepacks were tcz, a new user could download the iso and write it to a cd, run Tiny Core from the cd, connect to the internet, open the app browser and install tc-install.tcz. Then install Tiny Core on the computer.

This cannot be done the way prepacks are now.

2. Another option would be to run Tiny Core from the cd and put tc-install.gz on a usb drive. With fluff removed from Tiny Core, the user needs to mount the usb drive, and use command line to create a tce directory on the usb drive, then copy tc-install.gz to it.

Many new users will find that too difficult.

3. Option 2 will not always work. Many older computers do not access the usb drive early enough to use the tce directory. If it was a tcz, Install Local can be used to install tc-install.tcz.

With tc-install.gz, it cannot be installed using install local. So that method is not possible.

4. Experienced users could remaster Tiny Core including the prepacks, and give it to their friends.

New users will not do that.

5. After installing Tiny Core, tc-install.tcz could be removed from OnBoot.

With tc-install.gz, it needs to be removed from the directory. Many new users will not understand.

6. There are other situations where having prepacks as tcz would be an advantage, but I think you should get the idea by now.


I see many advantages in making prepacks tcz, and many disadvantages in using gz.

I would like to hear what the Tiny Core team and others think.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2011, 12:43:05 PM by Guy »
Many people see what is. Some people see what can be, and make a difference.

Offline jur

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
    • cycling photo essays
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2011, 01:20:43 AM »
I am also concerned about the experience new users would get when firing up TC for the first time. Remembering my own experience as a new linux user, it was not a little baffling, and I tended to compare it with puppy which guides you through installation at every step with lots of info. Info which in text format does not take much room.

So here would be my suggestion: With a brand new TC boot, how about providing a Install icon similar to what is offered by say ubuntu live CD. This would start a script which would download the installation pre-pack, copy to RAM (or loop mount it?), and start the install with some choices provided along the way. Just a more user friendly way for the many new users. Old salts don't need this but newbies do.

This Install icon and pre-pack would be auto-removed after use, but still be available as an option from the repo for re-download. Or something like that.

I am not sure if a .gz can be made to run after booting. If not, then Guy is right: a .gz pre-pack would force a second boot.

Offline tinypoodle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3836
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2011, 01:25:00 AM »
1. If the prepacks were tcz, a new user could download the iso and write it to a cd, run Tiny Core from the cd, connect to the internet, open the app browser and install tc-install.tcz.

If I have understood right, the purpose of nettools.gz is exactly to break the circular dependency and achieve connection to internet by usage of prepack, so depending on internet connection under TC in order to download prepack would defeat the purpose.
"Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster." Niklaus Wirth - A Plea for Lean Software (1995)

Offline Jason W

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7079
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2011, 04:44:19 AM »
I think we have all seen the difficulties folks are having with manually downloading things like wireless-tools.tcz, adding it to a tce directory, editing the onboot.lst, and so on to try to get connected.  Or any other situation where you don't have network access but need an extension first.  Though I wrote a script to make it easy to set up a tce directory and populate it with extensions, even from Windows, folks still seem to keep having trouble with downloading outside of the appbrowser.

By downloading one file, then running a simple command, it should make the process a easier especially for first timers needing wireless stuff or NIC firmware installed first.   

Offline roberts

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7344
  • Founder Emeritus
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2011, 02:27:16 PM »
I am working on making prepacks better supported in v3.7. Developing...
10+ Years Contributing to Linux Open Source Projects.

Offline Lee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
    • My Core wiki user page
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2011, 03:47:34 PM »
I had toyed with the idea of setting up prepackaged sets of extensions in virtual disk files to be loaded with the tcvd= boot code.  I haven't really thought too far down that path because the idea of having a user then shift things around so they could eventually boot without the virtual disk seemed a little iffy.

To those of you more experienced with installing and packaging, does this sound like it is worth pursuing?  Or maybe its easier to just use a tarball?

32 bit core4.7.7, Xprogs, Xorg-7.6, wbar, jwm
PPR, data persistence through filetool.sh
USB Flash drive, one partition, ext2, grub4dos

Offline roberts

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7344
  • Founder Emeritus
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2011, 10:28:34 AM »
I thought about tcvd. But seems less flexible than the other options.
We are still kicking the "tires". Dust has not settled. We have recognized the issues facing some users to establish net access and/or initial installation. Stay tuned...
10+ Years Contributing to Linux Open Source Projects.

Offline Guy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1089
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2011, 12:03:09 PM »
Obviously you are discussing with the team, and getting ideas from everyone, to come up with the best outcome.

Just a thought.

You could make tc-install into an extension, and make dosfstools-3.tcz, syslinux.tcz and perl5.tcz, dependencies.

Unless something changes in the future, dosfstools-3.tcz, syslinux.tcz and perl5.tcz, don't have dependencies. When downloading them manually, you don't need to include .dep files, which makes it easier than apps with a lot of dependencies.

Most people won't need perl5, so would only be a matter of downloading 3 files - tc-install.tcz, dosfstools-3.tcz, syslinux.tcz.

The way I do it, you would only need tc-install.tcz and syslinux.tcz.


Another option is to combine them all in a large extension. You would only have one file to download, but then you have the same extensions available on their own.


I think using the existing App Browser, including Install Local, will be easier than making a new installer for tc-install.gz. Can tc-install.gz be loaded after the operating system, like Install Local?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 02:39:25 PM by Guy »
Many people see what is. Some people see what can be, and make a difference.

Offline roberts

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7344
  • Founder Emeritus
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2011, 12:07:21 PM »
Quote
Can tc-install.gz be loaded after the operating system...
Yes. Including loading from NTFS using only the base Tiny Core (v3.7) System.
10+ Years Contributing to Linux Open Source Projects.

Offline tinypoodle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3836
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2011, 09:56:56 PM »
Quote
Can tc-install.gz be loaded after the operating system...
Yes. Including loading from NTFS using only the base Tiny Core (v3.7) System.

Does same apply for reiserfs (and possibly other filesystems not supported by base)?
"Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster." Niklaus Wirth - A Plea for Lean Software (1995)

Online bmarkus

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4841
    • My Community Forum
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2011, 10:28:33 PM »
Quote
Can tc-install.gz be loaded after the operating system...
Yes. Including loading from NTFS using only the base Tiny Core (v3.7) System.

Does same apply for reiserfs (and possibly other filesystems not supported by base)?

A bit OT, but why one is using reiserfs in 2011? It was great in the past, but today I do not see any real benefit.
Béla
Ham Radio callsign: HA5DI

"Amateur Radio: The First Technology-Based Social Network."

Offline tinypoodle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3836
Re: starterpacks should be .tcz
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 12:01:20 AM »
I have multiple reasons which make me (still) trust reiserfs most at this moment...
Following the developments, when reiser 4 or btrfs become more mature then I might consider a change.
In the end it is all a matter of preferences and choice and taking responsibility for the consequences of choices made.

But my question was not exclusively regarding reiserfs, neither about preference of fs to use, but about personal choices being supported.
"Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster." Niklaus Wirth - A Plea for Lean Software (1995)

Offline curaga

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7810
Re: prepacks should be .tcz
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 12:06:59 AM »
Does same apply for reiserfs (and possibly other filesystems not supported by base)?

No, not at this time.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline coreplayer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: starterpacks should be .tcz
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 09:43:52 PM »
OMG!!    9+ long frustrating hours late I still have nothing to show for my labor.   No applications loaded, not even a wireless internet connection.  No help and no useful guides to lead the path to success..

I mean what good is an OS which can't connect to the internet wirelessly with ease in this 2011?   or have a meticulous guide to help accomplish the task?

An example:  The instructions for installing the wireless starterpack specify "Then use Control
Panel->Load Starter Pack, to naviagte to and load the selected starter pack..."

Load Starter Pack!!  Oh really??   Someone must have forgot to include that option in my distro...    It's not there,  as far as i can tell there is no other method available to load the starterpack either.

So I gave up on the wireless,  launched a hard wired connection from a router and opened the appbrowser.  YAY!!  I found the wicd app and installed it.  cool :)   
Unfortunately I don't think there are wireless drivers installed or perhaps the wrong driver,  although I'm not a 100% sure on that.  At any rate, wicd app reports "no wireless connections found"   

Anyhow in the time spent gaining experience with Tiny Core Linux I could have remotely rebuild a server, complete with web site and customer database,  all up and running with perhaps just a few security issues to deal with..   So sad i can't succeed in creating a wireless connection to the web :)

I feel like I'm in a boat, a really beautiful boat btw and really don't want to leap overboard. however the boat has lost it's anchor, is drifting with no gas and no paddle or radio...

 ???


Online bmarkus

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4841
    • My Community Forum
Re: starterpacks should be .tcz
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 09:59:00 PM »
...no paddle or radio...

 ???



No radio really? This is what you are using now, the emergency radio. Someone will recscue you :)
Béla
Ham Radio callsign: HA5DI

"Amateur Radio: The First Technology-Based Social Network."