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Author Topic: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)  (Read 23797 times)

Offline nitram

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Running TC 6 32-bit version of VLC, Xorg with Fluxbox. VLC opens and runs well for local mp3 and mp4.

Here's terminal output when launching VLC:
Code: [Select]
tc@box:~$ vlc
VLC media player 2.2.1 Terry Pratchett (Weatherwax) (revision 2.2.1-0-ga425c42)
[09ad0ab0] pulse audio output error: PulseAudio server connection failure: Connection refused
[0999d0d0] core libvlc: Running vlc with the default interface. Use 'cvlc' to use vlc without interface.
QIconvCodec::convertFromUnicode: using Latin-1 for conversion, iconv_open failed
QIconvCodec::convertToUnicode: using Latin-1 for conversion, iconv_open failed
[099adb40] qt4 interface error: Unable to load extensions module

Then clicking media > open network stream > paste youtube URL > click play. The youtube address flashes briefly on the VLC Fluxbox window title bar, VLC flickers a bit, play button changes to pause (as if to start playing), then reverts back to play. Video does not play, nor sound. Nothing happens. No message or additional output to terminal. Tried using several youtube URLs, which otherwise play okay in Firefox using Flash. System is otherwise working great, including wired ethernet connection.

Anyone got any tips or configuration settings? Was this disabled in the build? VLC info page does not provide any hints. Just wondering - thanks.

Edit: Forgot to mention, just running Alsa not pulse. Sound is otherwise great, even when playing VLC mp3/mp4.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 11:14:25 PM by nitram »

Offline Juanito

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2015, 11:35:53 PM »
Are you using the most recent version of vlc from the 6.x repo (it was recompiled relatively recently to use glibc iconv rather than the libiconv extension)?

Do you have a locale set like en_US.UTF-8, for example?

Offline nitram

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2015, 12:02:56 AM »
Hi Juanito. Latest version, just used Apps to check for updates. This VLC was just installed a few days ago. According to Apps and VLC, version v2.2.1. Regarding locale, what do you mean, where do i check?

Edit: No specific locale set in showbootcodes if this is what you mean.

Offline Juanito

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2015, 12:07:25 AM »
Sometimes (but not always) when you see messages like "Latin-1 for conversion, iconv_open failed", you need to set a locale - see the getlocale extension.

Offline nitram

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2015, 12:36:17 AM »
Hi, okay.
Code: [Select]
tc@box:~$ showbootcodes
BOOT_IMAGE=/tinycore/boot/vmlinuz nozswap showapps tce=sdb3 lang=en_US.UTF-8
tc@box:~$ ls /usr/local/tce.installed/ | grep locale
mylocale

Same issue with VLC, but terminal output:
Code: [Select]
tc@box:~$ vlc
VLC media player 2.2.1 Terry Pratchett (Weatherwax) (revision 2.2.1-0-ga425c42)
[097ad5c0] pulse audio output error: PulseAudio server connection failure: Connection refused
[0978e8f8] core libvlc: Running vlc with the default interface. Use 'cvlc' to use vlc without interface.
Unable to load library icui18n "Cannot load library icui18n: (icui18n: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory)"
[0979e7a0] qt4 interface error: Unable to load extensions module

Loaded icu.tcz, re-opened VLC via terminal, still unable to open/play network stream:
Code: [Select]
tc@box:~$ vlc
VLC media player 2.2.1 Terry Pratchett (Weatherwax) (revision 2.2.1-0-ga425c42)
[086755c0] pulse audio output error: PulseAudio server connection failure: Connection refused
[086568f8] core libvlc: Running vlc with the default interface. Use 'cvlc' to use vlc without interface.
[086667a0] qt4 interface error: Unable to load extensions module

Offline Juanito

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2015, 12:45:20 AM »
Hmm - so it either needs pulseaudio or there's some part of qt-4.x missing...

Offline nitram

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2015, 01:11:43 AM »
Hi Juanito.

Would prefer not to install pulse, even for testing purposes, one of the many reasons i've migrated to Tiny Core.

I already have the following qt libraries loaded, as Misalf let me test his builds of MPlayer and SMPlayer, which is able to stream youtube no problem with the basic qt library files, no locale or pulse.
Code: [Select]
tc@box:~$ ls /usr/local/tce.installed/ | grep qt
qt-4.x-base
qt-4.x-dbus
qt-4.x-script
qt-4.x-xml

Loaded pretty much every qt library file through Apps, restarted VLC, same problem.
Code: [Select]
tc@box:~$ ls /usr/local/tce.installed/ | grep qt
qt-4.x-base
qt-4.x-bin
qt-4.x-dbus
qt-4.x-extended
qt-4.x-opengl
qt-4.x-script
qt-4.x-sql
qt-4.x-xml

Code: [Select]
qt4 interface error: Unable to load extensions module

Can anyone else confirm whether VLC 32-bit with/out pulse is able to network stream youtube videos?

Offline Juanito

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2015, 01:17:36 AM »
I just played an mp4 locally with vlc and it worked, but displayed the same errors as you got.

Could you try starting vlc with "vlc --verbose 2" and see what you get.

Offline nitram

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2015, 01:30:29 AM »
Locally no problem for me either. Just media > network stream > paste youtube URL > press play no work.

Here's the output upon VLC startup and after attempting to stream known working youtube URL:
Code: [Select]
tc@box:~$ vlc --verbose 2
VLC media player 2.2.1 Terry Pratchett (Weatherwax) (revision 2.2.1-0-ga425c42)
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: VLC media player - 2.2.1 Terry Pratchett (Weatherwax)
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: Copyright © 1996-2015 the VideoLAN team
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: revision 2.2.1-0-ga425c42
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: configured with ./configure  '-prefix=/usr/local' '--disable-static' '--disable-lua' '--disable-a52' 'CC=gcc -march=i486 -mtune=i686 -Os -pipe' 'CXX=g++ -march=i486 -mtune=i686 -Os -pipe'
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: searching plug-in modules
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: loading plugins cache file /tmp/tcloop/vlc/usr/local/lib/vlc/plugins/plugins.dat
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: recursively browsing `/tmp/tcloop/vlc/usr/local/lib/vlc/plugins'
[098dc8f8] core libvlc warning: cannot load module `/tmp/tcloop/vlc/usr/local/lib/vlc/plugins/codec/libvaapi_drm_plugin.so' (libva-drm.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory)
[098dc8f8] core libvlc warning: cannot load module `/tmp/tcloop/vlc/usr/local/lib/vlc/plugins/codec/libvaapi_x11_plugin.so' (libva-x11.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory)
[098dc8f8] core libvlc warning: cannot load module `/tmp/tcloop/vlc/usr/local/lib/vlc/plugins/codec/libx264_plugin.so' (libx264.so.85: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory)
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: saving plugins cache /tmp/tcloop/vlc/usr/local/lib/vlc/plugins/plugins.dat
[098dc8f8] core libvlc warning: cannot create /tmp/tcloop/vlc/usr/local/lib/vlc/plugins/plugins.dat.9575: Read-only file system
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: plug-ins loaded: 397 modules
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: opening config file (/home/tc/.config/vlc/vlcrc)
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: translation test: code is "C"
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: CPU has capabilities MMX FPU
[09953928] core input debug: Creating an input for 'Media Library'
[09953928] core input debug: Input is a meta file: disabling unneeded options
[09953928] core input debug: using timeshift granularity of 50 MiB, in path '/tmp'
[09953928] core input debug: `file/xspf-open:///home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf' gives access `file' demux `xspf-open' path `/home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf'
[09953928] core input debug: creating demux: access='file' demux='xspf-open' location='/home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf' file='/home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf'
[09a12688] core demux debug: looking for access_demux module matching "file": 13 candidates
[09a12688] core demux debug: no access_demux modules matched
[09953928] core input debug: creating access 'file' location='/home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf', path='/home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf'
[09a12688] core access debug: looking for access module matching "file": 18 candidates
[09a12688] filesystem access debug: opening file `/home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf'
[09a12688] core access debug: using access module "filesystem"
[09a115d8] core stream debug: Using stream method for AStream*
[09a115d8] core stream debug: starting pre-buffering
[09a115d8] core stream debug: received first data after 0 ms
[09a115d8] core stream debug: pre-buffering done 296 bytes in 0s - 266 KiB/s
[09a11a60] core stream debug: looking for stream_filter module matching "any": 9 candidates
[09a11a60] core stream debug: no stream_filter modules matched
[09a11a60] core stream debug: looking for stream_filter module matching "record": 9 candidates
[09a11a60] core stream debug: using stream_filter module "record"
[09953928] core input debug: creating demux: access='file' demux='xspf-open' location='/home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf' file='/home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf'
[098fb9e8] core demux debug: looking for demux module matching "xspf-open": 57 candidates
[098fb9e8] xspf demux debug: using XSPF playlist reader
[098fb9e8] core demux debug: using demux module "playlist"
[09953f28] core demux meta debug: looking for meta reader module matching "any": 0 candidates
[09953f28] core demux meta debug: no meta reader modules
[09953928] core input debug: `file/xspf-open:///home/tc/.local/share/vlc/ml.xspf' successfully opened
[09953f28] core xml reader debug: looking for xml reader module matching "any": 1 candidates
[09953f28] core xml reader debug: using xml reader module "xml"
[098fb9e8] xspf demux debug: parsed 0 tracks successfully
[09953928] core input debug: EOF reached
[098fb9e8] core demux debug: removing module "playlist"
[09a11a60] core stream debug: removing module "record"
[09a12688] core access debug: removing module "filesystem"
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: creating audio output
[09959ba0] core audio output debug: looking for audio output module matching "any": 5 candidates
[09959ba0] pulse audio output debug: using library version 4.0.0
[09959ba0] pulse audio output debug:  (compiled with version 4.0.0, protocol 28)
[09959ba0] pulse audio output error: PulseAudio server connection failure: Connection refused
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Available ALSA PCM devices:
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Discard all samples (playback) or generate zero samples (capture) (null)
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Intel 82801AA-ICH, Intel 82801AA-ICH Default Audio Device (default:CARD=I82801AAICH)
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Intel 82801AA-ICH, Intel 82801AA-ICH Default Audio Device (sysdefault:CARD=I82801AAICH)
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Intel 82801AA-ICH, Intel 82801AA-ICH Front speakers (front:CARD=I82801AAICH,DEV=0)
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Intel 82801AA-ICH, Intel 82801AA-ICH 2.1 Surround output to Front and Subwoofer speakers (surround21:CARD=I82801AAICH,DEV=0)
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Intel 82801AA-ICH, Intel 82801AA-ICH 4.0 Surround output to Front and Rear speakers (surround40:CARD=I82801AAICH,DEV=0)
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Intel 82801AA-ICH, Intel 82801AA-ICH 4.1 Surround output to Front, Rear and Subwoofer speakers (surround41:CARD=I82801AAICH,DEV=0)
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Intel 82801AA-ICH, Intel 82801AA-ICH 5.0 Surround output to Front, Center and Rear speakers (surround50:CARD=I82801AAICH,DEV=0)
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Intel 82801AA-ICH, Intel 82801AA-ICH 5.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Rear and Subwoofer speakers (surround51:CARD=I82801AAICH,DEV=0)
[09959ba0] alsa audio output debug: Intel 82801AA-ICH, Intel 82801AA-ICH IEC958 (S/PDIF) Digital Audio Output (iec958:CARD=I82801AAICH,DEV=0)
[09959ba0] core audio output debug: using audio output module "alsa"
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: keeping audio output
[09961050] core interface debug: looking for interface module matching "hotkeys,none": 13 candidates
[09961050] core interface debug: using interface module "hotkeys"
[09a115b0] core interface debug: looking for interface module matching "globalhotkeys,none": 13 candidates
[09a115b0] core interface debug: using interface module "xcb_hotkeys"
[099569d8] core interface debug: looking for interface module matching "dbus,none": 13 candidates
[099569d8] dbus interface debug: listening on dbus as: org.mpris.MediaPlayer2.vlc
[099569d8] core interface debug: using interface module "dbus"
[098dc8f8] core libvlc: Running vlc with the default interface. Use 'cvlc' to use vlc without interface.
[098ec7a8] core interface debug: looking for interface module matching "any": 13 candidates
[b5398a60] core generic debug: looking for extension module matching "any": 0 candidates
[b5398a60] core generic debug: no extension modules
[098ec7a8] qt4 interface error: Unable to load extensions module
[098ec7a8] core interface debug: using interface module "qt4"
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: adding item `https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE' ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE )
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: processing request item: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE, node: null, skip: 0
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: rebuilding array of current - root Playlist
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: rebuild done - 1 items, index 0
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: starting playback of the new playlist item
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: resyncing on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE is at 0
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: creating new input thread
[b3300508] core input debug: Creating an input for 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE'
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: requesting art for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[b3300508] core input debug: using timeshift granularity of 50 MiB, in path '/tmp'
[b3300508] core input debug: `https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE' gives access `https' demux `' path `www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE'
[b3300508] core input debug: specified demux `any'
[b3300508] core input debug: creating demux: access='https' demux='any' location='www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE' file='(null)'
[098ec608] core demux debug: looking for access_demux module matching "https": 13 candidates
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: meta ok for (null), need to fetch art
[b53e4c68] core art finder debug: looking for meta fetcher module matching "any": 0 candidates
[b53e4c68] core art finder debug: no meta fetcher modules
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: searching art for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[b35016c0] core art finder debug: looking for art finder module matching "any": 1 candidates
[b35016c0] core art finder debug: no art finder modules matched
[098ec608] core demux debug: no access_demux modules matched
[b3300508] core input debug: creating access 'https' location='www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE', path='(null)'
[098ec608] core access debug: looking for access module matching "https": 18 candidates
[09a12510] core art finder debug: looking for meta fetcher module matching "any": 0 candidates
[09a12510] core art finder debug: no meta fetcher modules
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: searching art for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[09a12510] core art finder debug: looking for art finder module matching "any": 1 candidates
[09a12510] core art finder debug: no art finder modules matched
[b35016c0] core art finder debug: looking for meta fetcher module matching "any": 0 candidates
[b35016c0] core art finder debug: no meta fetcher modules
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: searching art for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[b35016c0] core art finder debug: looking for art finder module matching "any": 1 candidates
[b35016c0] core art finder debug: no art finder modules matched
[098dc8f8] core libvlc debug: art not found for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[09a12510] core art finder debug: looking for meta fetcher module matching "any": 0 candidates
[09a12510] core art finder debug: no meta fetcher modules
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: searching art for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[09a12510] core art finder debug: looking for art finder module matching "any": 1 candidates
[09955ea8] core tls client debug: looking for tls client module matching "any": 1 candidates
[09a12510] core art finder debug: no art finder modules matched
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: art not found for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[098ec7a8] qt4 interface debug: IM: Setting an input
[09955ea8] gnutls tls client debug: using GnuTLS version 3.0.30
[09955ea8] gnutls tls client debug: loaded 159 trusted CAs
[09955ea8] core tls client debug: using tls client module "gnutls"
[098ec608] http access debug: querying proxy for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[098ec608] http access debug: no proxy
[098ec608] http access debug: http: server='www.youtube.com' port=443 file='/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE'
[098ec608] core access debug: net: connecting to www.youtube.com port 443
[098ec608] core access debug: connection succeeded (socket = 12)
[09d4d8c8] gnutls tls session debug: TLS handshake: Resource temporarily unavailable, try again.
[09d4d8c8] gnutls tls session debug: TLS handshake: Resource temporarily unavailable, try again.
[09d4d8c8] gnutls tls session debug: TLS handshake: Resource temporarily unavailable, try again.
[09d4d8c8] gnutls tls session debug: TLS handshake: Success.
[09d4d8c8] gnutls tls session debug: 3 certificate(s) in the list
[098ec608] http access debug: protocol 'HTTP' answer code 200
[098ec608] http access debug: Server: gwiseguy/2.0
[098ec608] http access debug: Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
[098ec608] http access debug: Transfer-Encoding: chunked
[098ec608] http access debug: Accepting Cookie: YSC=oGNmXDeTyG8; path=/; domain=.youtube.com; httponly
[098ec608] http access debug: Accepting Cookie: VISITOR_INFO1_LIVE=oianjzci3hY; path=/; domain=.youtube.com; expires=Sat, 19-Mar-2016 20:19:24 GMT; httponly
[098ec608] http access debug: Accepting Cookie: PREF=f1=40000000; path=/; domain=.youtube.com; expires=Sat, 19-Mar-2016 20:19:24 GMT
[098ec608] http access debug: Connection: close
[098ec608] core access debug: using access module "http"
[099115e0] core stream debug: Using stream method for AStream*
[099115e0] core stream debug: starting pre-buffering
[099115e0] core stream debug: received first data after 0 ms
[099115e0] core stream debug: pre-buffering done 559 bytes in 0s - 4402 KiB/s
[09d4e738] core stream debug: looking for stream_filter module matching "any": 9 candidates
[09d4e738] core stream debug: no stream_filter modules matched
[09d4e738] core stream debug: looking for stream_filter module matching "record": 9 candidates
[09d4e738] core stream debug: using stream_filter module "record"
[b3300508] core input debug: creating demux: access='https' demux='any' location='www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE' file='(null)'
[09d4e858] core demux debug: looking for demux module matching "any": 57 candidates
[09d4e858] avformat demux debug: trying url: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE
[09d4e858] avformat demux debug: CPU flags: 0x0100100b
[09d4e858] avformat demux debug: couldn't guess format
[09d4e858] vobsub demux debug: this doesn't seem to be a vobsub file
[09d4e858] ps demux warning: this does not look like an MPEG PS stream, continuing anyway
[09d4e858] core demux debug: using demux module "ps"
[09a31520] core demux meta debug: looking for meta reader module matching "any": 0 candidates
[09a31520] core demux meta debug: no meta reader modules
[b3300508] core input debug: `https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtzu9Vgb_zE' successfully opened
[09d4e858] ps demux warning: garbage at input, trying to resync...
[b3300508] core input debug: EOF reached
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: finished input
[098ec608] core access debug: object waitpipe triggered
[09d4e858] core demux debug: removing module "ps"
[09d4e738] core stream debug: removing module "record"
[098ec608] core access debug: removing module "http"
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: dead input
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: changing item without a request (current 0/1)
[09a0ee38] core playlist debug: nothing to play
[098ec7a8] qt4 interface debug: IM: Deleting the input

Offline nitram

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2015, 02:10:29 AM »
Just tried streaming on an older VLC version in another *nix install. No luck either. Google shows lots of people complaining about youtube streaming breakage with VLC, modifying lua scripts, etc. Suspect this probably isn't an issue with the TC version. Would still be interested to know if anyone else can get it to work, but really don't want to put anyone out with troubleshooting effort. Thanks for helping me look into it Juanito. Please feel free to move to TCE discussion or similar, probably not a bug.

Offline bmarkus

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2015, 02:24:40 AM »
Just for the reference, it works fine with piCore-6.1 on Raspberry Pi.
Béla
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Offline Juanito

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2015, 02:36:45 AM »
does loading libva and x264 help?

Offline nitram

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2015, 03:51:20 AM »
Loading libva and x264 made no difference.

Hi Béla. I am not familair with piCore architecture and differences. Which version of VLC player and are there any different dependencies than listed below? If you don't mind, please paste a VLC-working youtube URL. Thanks.

These are the VLC dependencies in TC 6:
Code: [Select]
SDL.tcz
gnutls.tcz
libavc1394.tcz
libavformat.tcz
libdc1394.tcz
libidn.tcz
libnotify.tcz
libpostproc.tcz
librsvg.tcz
libssh2.tcz
libswscale.tcz
openssl-1.0.1.tcz
qt-4.x-base.tcz

Offline bmarkus

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2015, 05:05:52 AM »
Loading libva and x264 made no difference.

Hi Béla. I am not familair with piCore architecture and differences. Which version of VLC player and are there any different dependencies than listed below? If you don't mind, please paste a VLC-working youtube URL. Thanks.



Tested different videos, all played fine.

VLC is 2.2.1

For deps see the Online Repository Browser
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Offline beerstein

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Re: VLC player does not play network stream (ie. youtube video)
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2015, 05:10:54 AM »
Hi: Are you using the correct URL of the Youtube video?
The correct URL is not the address shown in the http://www....... window on top of the page.

I prefer pulsaudio and pavucontrol to handle ALSA in almost any sound applications.
t(w)o be(ers) or not t(w)o be(ers) that is the question