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Author Topic: scms locales are not automatically loaded  (Read 5175 times)

Offline AbNoRMiS

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2012, 09:48:08 PM »
when i tested these changes i found some "features" at work with scm
1. if been downloaded and installed tcz extension then scm deps
    with a similar names can't be downloaded and installed (for example gtk2)
2. scm are repeatedly added to scmboot.lst without their checking in this list
3. when deleting scm ( scmapps -> apps -> local -> delete -> go )
    then its name are not deleted from scmboot.lst
4. and now the most interesting
    when deleting an scm then will be deleted tcz extension with a similar name
    for example tar.scm, tar-locale.scm etc (and yet i had installed abiword.tcz ;))
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 12:27:29 AM by AbNoRMiS »
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Offline AbNoRMiS

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2012, 10:31:52 AM »

Removed attachment as it is against forum policy.
dear roberts
sorry, but i do not quite understand what exactly i violated from below mentioned
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,7738.0.html
http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php/topic,5287.0.html
i proposed changes to the existing system script and expressed this on the forum
i marked amended and attached a modified script for testing
because i have not found anything other than ban attach binary extensions
attached script does not violate the integrity of the system or its operation
may i something incorrectly translated and not exactly understood?
please forgive me if i'm wrong but please explain this to me
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:54:37 AM by AbNoRMiS »
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Offline roberts

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2012, 11:10:25 AM »
The same respect affored to extension makers applies to base system fucntions.
You do not decide to take control of  someone's  extension. We do not want multiple varations of core system functions. Especailly when a discussion was ongooing. There are exising ways to solve wihtout hard coding.

Please show respect and do not post replacements for core functions.
Ideas, suggestions, and discussions are welcomed. Posted replacements of core functions especially as attachments are not. User posted replacments would become a support nightmare.
Please let myself and the team handle the core there are plenty of new requested extensions that you can contribute.
10+ Years Contributing to Linux Open Source Projects.

Offline roberts

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2012, 12:23:33 PM »
Back to the topic:

Many ways to handle. Some are quite easy. Note that not everyone needs a locale file.
In order of ease and least impact:

1. Add needed locale.scms to scmboot.lst  (Easy)
2. Manually load locale when loading the base scm via ScmApps GUI. (Simple)
3. Create a .dep file for the locale.scm indicating the base scm name. (Less simple)
4. Embed every local.scm into the base scm extension. (Much larger downloads)
5. Hard code searching for a corresponding locale file for each and every extension install,  uninstall, and deletion. ( Impacts every user and every action for every extension).
10+ Years Contributing to Linux Open Source Projects.

Offline AbNoRMiS

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2012, 01:36:23 PM »
The same respect affored to extension makers applies to base system fucntions.
You do not decide to take control of  someone's  extension. We do not want multiple varations of core system functions. Especailly when a discussion was ongooing. There are exising ways to solve wihtout hard coding.

Please show respect and do not post replacements for core functions.
Ideas, suggestions, and discussions are welcomed. Posted replacements of core functions especially as attachments are not. User posted replacments would become a support nightmare.
Please let myself and the team handle the core there are plenty of new requested extensions that you can contribute.
with great respect roberts thanks for your explanation
in any case I did not mean disrespect of your work and team
i just tried little help in improving your unique like me think system
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Offline AbNoRMiS

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 02:19:14 PM »
if there be accurate then going back to the topic title involves automatic loading locales
unfortunately none of the proposed first four decisions can't considered fully automated
but if already decided not to resort to hard coding then will have to use available means
thanks
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 02:38:14 PM by AbNoRMiS »
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Offline Jason W

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 02:43:13 PM »
Perhaps since scm extensions are usually downloaded once and put on hard storage, and their updates are small with the use of zsync, maybe it would be simplest and best to just include the locale files in the scm, keeping with the self contained concept as much as possible. 

On looking at the locale situation, my vote is for simplicity of included files.

Offline Jason W

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 02:47:57 PM »
The team has discussed the scm locale situation and has opted for the simplicity of including the locale data in the scm.  I will pack the files in the existing scm's, and any new ones will simply include them.  Even the largest apps will rarely take over 5mb of compressed locale files, so the cost should not be significant.


Offline AbNoRMiS

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2012, 03:44:16 PM »
do not you think that is very controversial decision was made?
if follow the tinycore principles of minimalism
then need separate the locale from main modules
because how to deal with such cases as these
Quote
gimp2-basic-locale.scm - 12.5MB
gimp2-basic.scm - 8.5MB
gtk2-locale.scm - 10.8M
gtk2.scm - 11.4M
gtk3-locale.scm - 10.5M
gtk3.scm - 9M
pidgin-minimal-locale.scm - 8.5M
pidgin-minimal.scm - 10.2M
it seems that such cases may be more than desired
when locales are the same or even larger than main modules
and purely english-speaking users are also not few
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Offline Jason W

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2012, 04:44:18 PM »
My initial motive for separating locale data was that they tend to be large, and are used by the minority.  They are very easy for those who want them to load them and include them in scmboot.lst.  Those who do not need them will never download or install them.  For those who use them, once in scmboot.lst they are always loaded and available.

Locale extensions are very easy to find, easy to load, and easy to unload for those who need them.  But as it apparently is not satisfactory to require loading -locale extensions and automation and thus complexity was desired, we opted for simplicity.

Online Rich

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2012, 05:10:08 PM »
Hi AbNoRMiS
While one of the core principles behind Tinycore is a small footprint, the point behind an scm is to be self contained.
As a result, scms are larger anyway since they contain private copies of libraries that would normally be shared
between extensions. Personally I think it makes sense from a self contained point of view to include locales.

Offline AbNoRMiS

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 05:32:41 PM »
murphy was right: any solutions breeds a new problems
frankly if my wish then i would leave as is now, it would be the easiest solution
but i think after some time someone will offer question of locale automation again
i am sure in this because even before this topic was established
i would propose changes to automatic download, install and remove tcz locales
 :)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 08:02:25 PM by AbNoRMiS »
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Offline Jason W

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2012, 06:49:56 PM »
It really is a shame that now someone is going to have to download and store a 20MB extension instead of an 8MB one in the case of gimp2-basic.scm.  Or 22MB instead of 11MB in the case of gtk2.scm.   All because one or two people were not satisfied with having to go through the effort of clicking "Install" in the Scmbrowser to install their needed locale extension data.

Offline AbNoRMiS

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2012, 08:20:08 PM »
must confess that i been one of those three people
but then the other two diverged for some reason
 :)
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Offline Jason W

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Re: scms locales are not automatically loaded
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 10:03:14 PM »
I spoke in a moment of frustration, it is not really that simple nor for that reason that we are going to include locales in the main scm extensions.  Though sure, this thread sparked that debate, there were several issues to consider regarding loading, unloading, etc. .

Mostly, we don't want the scm to head down the slippery slope of feeling it needs to compete with the tcz in terms of modularity, size, etc, therefore diluting it's main goal of being self contained.  Larger downloads are just part of that concept. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 10:05:07 PM by Jason W »