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Author Topic: newbie questions?  (Read 3543 times)

Offline maro

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 04:05:26 AM »
Quick reply before I go to bed: So your modem is a Pantech UM175 for the EVDO network of Verizon (and not the newer Pantech UML 290 for their LTE network as I had previously speculated). I've only had time for a very cursory search, and I'm therefore not yet 100% sure whether it needs the 'usb-modeswitch.tcz' extension or not (with a current hunch that it won't require it). In any case I'm rather optimistic that it should be possible to get away with only a very small number of required extensions.

My count of ca. 30 extensions for NetworkManager was anyway far too low, as NetworkManager needs to operate within a DE like LXDE or Gnome for it's GUI to be usable. Which means that far more extensions would be needed. But in any case I'd see myself unfit to provide assistance with such a "monstrosity".

Finally I see the need to point out that a 12 MBytes download like TC can not possibly support all potential networking modes "out of the box". That is one of the reasons why Puppy weights in with ca. 129 MBytes and Ubuntu with ca. 695 MBytes. In this case of "you get what you pay for" the first target of TC are ethernet connected systems (which are still IMHO the vast majority of users) and more support (e.g. for WiFi) comes with the CorePlus "edition".

My plan for tomorrow would be to give you some guidance how you can make use of your working Puppy configuration (which IIRC uses 'wvdial'). It would be therefore good to know which Puppy release you have been using.

If you can't wait: try to google it yourself, as there are several other people who have used your modem and 'wvdial' on the Verizon network (e.g. here). In theory you'll require the following extensions: pppd.tcz, wvdial.tcz, libssl-0.9.8.tcz, and wvstreams.tcz (plus a dependency file).
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 04:09:19 AM by maro »

Offline crankypuss

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2012, 02:49:09 PM »
Quick reply before I go to bed: So your modem is a Pantech UM175 for the EVDO network of Verizon (and not the newer Pantech UML 290 for their LTE network as I had previously speculated). I've only had time for a very cursory search, and I'm therefore not yet 100% sure whether it needs the 'usb-modeswitch.tcz' extension or not (with a current hunch that it won't require it). In any case I'm rather optimistic that it should be possible to get away with only a very small number of required extensions.

My count of ca. 30 extensions for NetworkManager was anyway far too low, as NetworkManager needs to operate within a DE like LXDE or Gnome for it's GUI to be usable. Which means that far more extensions would be needed. But in any case I'd see myself unfit to provide assistance with such a "monstrosity".

Finally I see the need to point out that a 12 MBytes download like TC can not possibly support all potential networking modes "out of the box". That is one of the reasons why Puppy weights in with ca. 129 MBytes and Ubuntu with ca. 695 MBytes. In this case of "you get what you pay for" the first target of TC are ethernet connected systems (which are still IMHO the vast majority of users) and more support (e.g. for WiFi) comes with the CorePlus "edition".

I'm not sure how to reply to that.  Let me just state the opinion that a serious operating system ought to be no larger and no smaller than required to backup and restore itself and to connect to whatever repository or medium contains additional functionality.  I think Puppy contains more than it needs to, and TinyCore perhaps less... and Ubuntu is nothing less than a fat slow pig.  I've been looking at distros for two months now, and TinyCore is the one I feel has the most potential.  It's also the fastest to boot, with Puppy coming in a fairly distant second.  But booting isn't enough if you can't get to the goodies, eh? <g>

(I'm also puzzled that Puppy is the *only* distro around that seems able to 'reboot' my system, an Acer D257 netbook, including TC and Ubuntu... although when I first installed Ubuntu both 'reboot' and 'hibernate' worked... still tracking that one down.)

My plan for tomorrow would be to give you some guidance how you can make use of your working Puppy configuration (which IIRC uses 'wvdial'). It would be therefore good to know which Puppy release you have been using.

If you can't wait: try to google it yourself, as there are several other people who have used your modem and 'wvdial' on the Verizon network (e.g. here). In theory you'll require the following extensions: pppd.tcz, wvdial.tcz, libssl-0.9.8.tcz, and wvstreams.tcz (plus a dependency file).

I'm not in a great hurry, I'm able to use Ubuntu to do everything I need to do, as long as I don't mind scratching my ear with my elbow.  I'm not sure how we're going to bootstrap this modem into operating without the appropriate extensions, but I'm more of a bits'n'bytes developer than anyone who has spent a great deal of time installing anything.  I have the latest stable Puppy, 5.2.8.

I would suggest that someone consider just how large an initial iso would really need to be in order to really do the setup job and make a decision; maybe that's already been done.  Maybe if it's too big, what you need is a leaner setup program, something fullscreen character mode perhaps.

I'll check back in the morning, probably between 0700-0900 UTC, but as I said I'm in no great hurry, I've half a dozen projects on the fire but none are urgent.  Thanks for your continued efforts.

Offline curaga

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2012, 12:36:06 AM »
Quote
I'm not sure how to reply to that.  Let me just state the opinion that a serious operating system ought to be no larger and no smaller than required to backup and restore itself and to connect to whatever repository or medium contains additional functionality.

You have to draw the line somewhere. What about 56k winmodems? What about satellite, serial, infrared, bluetooth connections? Maybe someone needs token ring to connect.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline crankypuss

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2012, 04:21:53 AM »
Quote
I'm not sure how to reply to that.  Let me just state the opinion that a serious operating system ought to be no larger and no smaller than required to backup and restore itself and to connect to whatever repository or medium contains additional functionality.

You have to draw the line somewhere. What about 56k winmodems? What about satellite, serial, infrared, bluetooth connections? Maybe someone needs token ring to connect.

Sure, lines have to be drawn somewhere.  There are devices you'll consider too obsolete to support at all... I'm not sure how long it's been since I've held a floppy disk in my hand, or even seen one.

On the other hand, if there's a network device you choose to support at all, (and I would think "generic modem" might fit into that category,) then it seems (to me) that such support ought to be in the base, even if that means that the option of offloading the support needs to be available once the user has gotten connected.

It's a decision, decisions get made for varying reasons, people react to them in various ways, and in the end everything pretty much works out one way or another.

Offline curaga

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2012, 08:00:43 AM »
A 3g usb modem is not really a "generic modem"; it quite often requires driver support, just like the 56k winmodems. Possibly firmware, and a list of unique settings for that account type/provider combo.

Modems in general are supported in a "the programs needed are in the repo" way, it is a rather messy can of worms. Though if you can come up with an easy to use, low overhead modem wizard that works for most types, we'd love to include it in CorePlus.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline crankypuss

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2012, 02:05:53 PM »
A 3g usb modem is not really a "generic modem"; it quite often requires driver support, just like the 56k winmodems. Possibly firmware, and a list of unique settings for that account type/provider combo.

Modems in general are supported in a "the programs needed are in the repo" way, it is a rather messy can of worms. Though if you can come up with an easy to use, low overhead modem wizard that works for most types, we'd love to include it in CorePlus.

Oddly enough, Puppy was quite able to handle it as a "generic modem".

Offline Guy

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2012, 08:17:02 PM »
I recently started using mobile broadband.

There is no easy way to set up a connection in Tinycore.

I am now using Linux Mint, as it can be set up very easily with Linux Mint.

I think mobile broadband will become the most used of any type of internet connection in the future. I think someone involved in Tinycore should work on an easy way to connect mobile broadband.


The app used to connect in Linux Mint is Network Manager.

The person who made the Network Manager extension in Tinycore is away on military service, and is temporarily unable to contribute.

Network Manager does not work for connecting mobile broadband in Tinycore.

There are dependencies missing.

I experimented for some time, and found by installing additional extensions, I was able to get more features working. But was unable to get it to work completely.

I don't have unlimited time, so I now use Linux Mint.


If anyone wants to contribute, you can purchase a prepaid mobile broadband usb quite inexpensively, and see what you can do to get it working.


You can download apps on another operating system, and copy them over to Tinycore. You need all dependencies. See the wiki on installing apps for a full explanation.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 08:33:25 PM by Guy »
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Offline curaga

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2012, 12:30:54 AM »
Oddly enough, Puppy was quite able to handle it as a "generic modem".

Because it included the specific drivers, and your modem did not require firmware or other tricks. I'm not sure what's unclear?
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline crankypuss

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2012, 10:59:54 AM »
Oddly enough, Puppy was quite able to handle it as a "generic modem".

Because it included the specific drivers, and your modem did not require firmware or other tricks. I'm not sure what's unclear?

What's unclear is how to tell TC the same information that Puppy made easy to input and Ubuntu just figured out on its own.

I'm not sure what the deal is here.  I've tried the 12m download and the coreplus 64m download and neither one offers any way whatsoever to configure a terminal as far as I can tell.  It has a "network manager" or whatever it's called in the control panel that apparently only knows about ethernet.

I'm not sure what's unclear.  How do you get this marvelously small and fast operating system to configure a simple modem?  Or is it intended to be useless unless you are in an office with a wired ethernet connection?  In my situation it appears to be glorious but not good for much.  Am I wasting my time here?

Offline curaga

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2012, 11:28:51 AM »
None of the isos we offer have built-in modem support currently, because none of us have modems, and nobody has contributed support for such.

Quote
How do you get this marvelously small and fast operating system to configure a simple modem?

By installing the required extensions. The bare minimum would be pppd and usb-serial, Puppy-equivalent would be those+wvdial+some gui, and the Ubuntu one network manager + the provider database with their huge amount of dependencies.
The only barriers that can stop you are the ones you create yourself.

Offline Guy

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2012, 03:28:52 PM »
For everyone who posts something on this forum, there are many who don't say anything, and just move to another distro.

Tinycore is excluding a large group of would-be users.

I repeat: If anyone wants to contribute, you can purchase a prepaid mobile broadband usb quite inexpensively, and see what you can do to get it working.

When you have it working, share so everyone can benefit.

I know there are a few who have gone through a complex process, and have it working. After reading their posts, and experimenting, I was unable to get mine working.

There needs to be something which is simple and easy for everyone.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 03:32:24 PM by Guy »
Many people see what is. Some people see what can be, and make a difference.

Offline crankypuss

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2012, 01:19:12 AM »
None of the isos we offer have built-in modem support currently, because none of us have modems, and nobody has contributed support for such.

Okay, that's a straight-up answer that I can respect.  Both TC and Puppy are GPL'ed, aren't they?  I'd think that theoretically TC could use the same code as Puppy.  But I'm in the same boat on this that you folks are, I don't know much about modems.

Quote
How do you get this marvelously small and fast operating system to configure a simple modem?

By installing the required extensions. The bare minimum would be pppd and usb-serial, Puppy-equivalent would be those+wvdial+some gui, and the Ubuntu one network manager + the provider database with their huge amount of dependencies.

That seems like a fairly classic Catch-22.  Or at least it wants to look like one.  Didn't you just get done saying there's no support for modems in any of the ISOs?  The obvious solution is to add something somewhere.  The CorePlus ISO seemed to have a lot of "stuff" preinstalled, like FireFox which is an amazing space-hog.

Well, I'm not going to bother trying to get you guys to do what makes sense to me, TC is "free" software right, so you're doing what makes sense to you.  I'll see if I can find the TC source code, according to the GPL is right there available with the binaries (ISOs) so it shouldn't be hard to find.

Offline Guy

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2012, 04:05:37 AM »
I think the Puppy modem stuff is still in the development stage, and does not work in all situations. If you used it you would need to improve it. Unless you are using a different version of Puppy than me.

I think it would not be difficult to get network manager working in Tinycore. It partly works, but needs several dependencies added. I gave up trying to find them all. This would be the quickest solution.

If somebody want to develop a smaller app for modems, that could be done later.
Many people see what is. Some people see what can be, and make a difference.

Offline Guy

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2012, 04:09:31 AM »
Does anyone know a way to capture exactly what is being sent over the internet?

If this can be done, you could capture what is being sent when connecting to the internet. This could then be used in a smaller app.
Many people see what is. Some people see what can be, and make a difference.

Online bmarkus

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Re: newbie questions?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2012, 04:26:16 AM »
Does anyone know a way to capture exactly what is being sent over the internet?

If this can be done, you could capture what is being sent when connecting to the internet. This could then be used in a smaller app.

There are many tools, for example WireShark. But regarding modems it doesn't help to catch modem commands sent from PC. Modems are speaking HAYES AT command set usually with some product specific extra commands. But basically a modem is an easy to handly device via serial interface. Try to find command set of your modem (ususally it is documented) and try it. After some experiments you can script it easy. Regarding serial interface I'm using Python but it is a personal preference.

The issue is with WIN modems. They are reall dumb devices with no serial interface, all functions implemented by the WINDOWS driver. This is where the problem is, specially with built-in onboard modems.

While I do not have such device, guess USB +G sticks for example using an USB serial and it must we not so hard to use.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:29:02 AM by bmarkus »
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